How do Suspects compare?

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Simon, I'm surprised that it's not clear to you. Once Tumblety posted bail -a legal right-, his court date was set for early December. Anderson fully expected Tumblety to be there. Remember, Tumblety used to use Liverpool as his point of entry and departure. It's not a surprise that Tumblety sneaked out the back way through Dover. You may not be privy to this, yet, but Roger Palmer has uncovered more information on Sir William Melville and his days at La Havre, France. We know that Melville left his duty there in December 1888. Was Melville involved with the Ripper case, i.e., possibly encountering Tumblety in France? Chances are now better.

So true, but you'll hear about this stuff in later articles. 2012 is a good year.

Trevor, why are you in so much denial about Tumblety? Your comments are clearly based upon faulty and outdated information. Why not read my article that just came out

Sincerely,

Mike[/QUOTE]

I am in denial because there is no evidence.

You and others may want to base your suspicions on wild uncorrobtated theories but i would rather look at it differently.The cases against Tumblety and Kosminski are based on issues you and others seek to rely on. Issues which from a police perspective go against the grain and against all that they would have done and could have done had they had the evidence in way back then.

Its about time some on here stopped using the words "maybe" "What if" "could have" "probabaly" these words are used constantly to try to negate valid points that are put forward by those who seek to remove the likes of Kosminskki and Tumblety from suspicion.

[mklhawley]

I'm interested in why Anderson appears to have been soliciting information about Tumblety from the USA two days before the quack boarded a transatlantic liner at Le Havre.

Hi Simon, I'm surprised that it's not clear to you. Once Tumblety posted bail -a legal right-, his court date was set for early December. Anderson fully expected Tumblety to be there. Remember, Tumblety used to use Liverpool as his point of entry and departure. It's not a surprise that Tumblety sneaked out the back way through Dover. You may not be privy to this, yet, but Roger Palmer has uncovered more information on Sir William Melville and his days at La Havre, France. We know that Melville left his duty there in December 1888. Was Melville involved with the Ripper case, i.e., possibly encountering Tumblety in France? Chances are now better. [/QUOTE]

There's more to Tumblety than meets the eye...

So true, but you'll hear about this stuff in later articles. 2012 is a good year.

Trevor, why are you in so much denial about Tumblety? Your comments are clearly based upon faulty and outdated information. Why not read my article that just came out

Sincerely,

Mike

[Trevor Marriott]

Simon,
Whilst it may be true that there was more to Tumblety than meets the eye, and a large pre-1888 file on him (if it was pre-1888) has always suggested that there might have been, doesn't mean that he wasn't a Ripper suspect as well, does it?

And what grounds would you say there were for bringing him under suspicion because on the face of it if there was never anyhting at the time.

If you are going to say someone mentioned his name then you might as well suggest that every man woman and child in Whitechapel could have been a ripper suspect because until such time as the killer was caught potentially every man woman and child could be regarded as a suspect.

If you are going refer to the likes of Tumblety as a suspect you have to have some evidence to show how he comes under supsicion what Littlechild wrote all those years later is not evidence and what he did write is watered down by the SB entry where he names O`Brien as a suspect in an official file.

I dont see O`Brien, Magrath and Wilson being championed by anyone on here as prime suspects despite being named in official police records as suspects. It only seems to be the suspects certain people have a vested interest in and are trying to keep them from disappearing without trace that we have to continually argue over.

[PaulB]

There's more to Tumblety than meets the eye, and it is slowly becoming apparent that none of it had anything to do with him ever being a Ripper suspect.

Regards,

Simon

Simon,
Whilst it may be true that there was more to Tumblety than meets the eye, and a large pre-1888 file on him (if it was pre-1888) has always suggested that there might have been, doesn't mean that he wasn't a Ripper suspect as well, does it?

[Simon Wood]

Hi Mike,

I'm interested in why Anderson appears to have been soliciting information about Tumblety from the USA two days before the quack boarded a transatlantic liner at Le Havre.

Had Littlechild's "large dossier" yet to be compiled at this juncture?

In the eight days between Tumblety's £300 bail and his boarding La Bretagne under the name Frank Townsend, Anderson's time might have been better spent alerting the rail and port police on both sides of the English Channel in order to secure his arrest; or, perhaps as was later suggested in the matter of the forger Richard Pigott, Anderson connived in allowing him to flee the country. If this was the case, then it is no surprise that he would have paid lip service to Chief Crowley.

There's more to Tumblety than meets the eye, and it is slowly becoming apparent that none of it had anything to do with him ever being a Ripper suspect.

Regards,

Simon

[caz]

Caz,
"His feelings toward women were remarkable and bitter in the extreme." Doesn't Littlechild here indicate that Tumblety was more than just playing for the away team?

I've never thought Littlechild thought Tumblety was Jack the Ripper, his observation about Tumbelty that 'although a 'Sycopathia Sexualis' subject he was not known as a 'Sadist' (which the murderer unquestionably was)...' seemingly arguing against that - if he thought Jack was a sadist and thought that Tumblety wasn't one, he wouldn't have thought Tumblety was the Ripper - but he thought Tumblety was 'a very likely' suspect, presumably meaning a plausible one, and Littlechild, of all people, must have known that being homosexual didn't make one a 'likely' Ripper. Remarkable and bitter feelings towards woman would do though, don't you think?

Hi Paul,

Ah yes, I had forgotten Littlechild's 'bitter in the extreme' observation. Hard to say how much he really knew about Tumblety's feelings, or what he meant by them being 'bitter in the extreme' towards women. But this doesn't imply any actual violent tendencies towards the fairer sex, so who knows? Many a disgruntled heterosexual hubby has expressed extremely bitter feelings towards womankind without ever thinking of ripping up female strangers in the night.

I always took Littlechild's 'not known as a 'Sadist'' comment to mean that he suspected he probably was, but had to concede there was nothing in his enormous dossier that confirmed it.

In other words, I do believe Littlechild thought Dr T fit his own ideas of who the ripper was likely to have been (assuming he wasn't just trying to put Sims off the scent of Dr D). But how much of his information about the man's 'feelings' was based on gossip, Chinese Whispers or good old Victorian prejudice, and how much depended on a belief that he had topped himself after the last murder (as opposed to turning up larger than life in America), I wouldn't like to guess.

Love,

Caz
X

[PaulB]

Hello Mr. Begg. I am thinking of:

1. Sir Robert's definitely ascertained fact which, in conjunction with the marginalia, may point to AK.

2. Sir MLM's., "The more I think on it . . ."

3. Littlechild's, "A very likely one . . ."

Of course, I recognise these as merely private opinions. Still, many researchers have taken these pronouncements seriously.

Cheers.
LC

Right.

[mklhawley]

You would have to demonstrate that Tumblety's 'unusual hatred of women' was not just Victorian speak for 'batting for the other side' or 'fanny dodger'. It does appear that the expression 'woman hater' was used in that sense and the uptight Victorians did consider it most unusual. Victoria herself wouldn't even admit that genuine Lesbians existed.

Sounds like a future article for me!

"His feelings toward women were remarkable and bitter in the extreme." Doesn't Littlechild here indicate that Tumblety was more than just playing for the away team?

I've never thought Littlechild thought Tumblety was Jack the Ripper, his observation about Tumbelty that 'although a 'Sycopathia Sexualis' subject he was not known as a 'Sadist' (which the murderer unquestionably was)...' seemingly arguing against that - if he thought Jack was a sadist and thought that Tumblety wasn't one, he wouldn't have thought Tumblety was the Ripper - but he thought Tumblety was 'a very likely' suspect, presumably meaning a plausible one, and Littlechild, of all people, must have known that being homosexual didn't make one a 'likely' Ripper. Remarkable and bitter feelings towards woman would do though, don't you think?

Good point Paul.

Sincerely,

Mike

[lynn cates]

suspects

Hello Mr. Begg. I am thinking of:

1. Sir Robert's definitely ascertained fact which, in conjunction with the marginalia, may point to AK.

2. Sir MLM's., "The more I think on it . . ."

3. Littlechild's, "A very likely one . . ."

Of course, I recognise these as merely private opinions. Still, many researchers have taken these pronouncements seriously.

Cheers.
LC

[PaulB]

Hello Michael.

"To get back to the question re: comparing suspects, let me just say that what makes everything so unpalatable is that of the top suspects, the more we know, the less likely they seem."

I agree here. One wonders, then, why are they top suspects?

Cheers.
LC

Depends what you mean by 'top suspects'.

[PaulB]

To get back to the question re: comparing suspects, let me just say that what makes everything so unpalatable is that of the top suspects, the more we know, the less likely they seem. This alone makes Kosminski stand out. If we find out more about him, he may become just as obscure as the others.

Mike

Personally, I think the problem stems from thinking that any of them was Jack the Ripper. The reality is that probably none of them were, and, anyway, they can't all have been unless you subscribe to the idea that all the murders were committed by different people, so somebody is going to be wrong. All we can do is hopefully ferret out how and why they became suspects. Only then can probabilities be assessed.

[lynn cates]

top suspects

Hello Michael.

"To get back to the question re: comparing suspects, let me just say that what makes everything so unpalatable is that of the top suspects, the more we know, the less likely they seem."

I agree here. One wonders, then, why are they top suspects?

Cheers.
LC

[PaulB]

Thanks Mike.

You would have to demonstrate that Tumblety's 'unusual hatred of women' was not just Victorian speak for 'batting for the other side' or 'fanny dodger'. It does appear that the expression 'woman hater' was used in that sense and the uptight Victorians did consider it most unusual. Victoria herself wouldn't even admit that genuine Lesbians existed.

For me, the most promising point you make is that the Yorkshire Ripper found inspiration by looking at representations similar to this Florentine Venus monstrosity. I do think it highly likely that our man would have enjoyed gawping at such things - along with all the other hundreds of visitors for whom such 'attractions' were intended. And that's the fly in the ointment. Our man could have been any one of those visitors, and that's assuming he did take an interest. Tumblety presumably made no secret of his interests, whereas one might have expected the murderer himself to be a bit more discreet about it, like the husbands and fathers, wives and mothers, who went to see such exhibits.

Love,

Caz
X

Caz,
"His feelings toward women were remarkable and bitter in the extreme." Doesn't Littlechild here indicate that Tumblety was more than just playing for the away team?

I've never thought Littlechild thought Tumblety was Jack the Ripper, his observation about Tumbelty that 'although a 'Sycopathia Sexualis' subject he was not known as a 'Sadist' (which the murderer unquestionably was)...' seemingly arguing against that - if he thought Jack was a sadist and thought that Tumblety wasn't one, he wouldn't have thought Tumblety was the Ripper - but he thought Tumblety was 'a very likely' suspect, presumably meaning a plausible one, and Littlechild, of all people, must have known that being homosexual didn't make one a 'likely' Ripper. Remarkable and bitter feelings towards woman would do though, don't you think?

[The Good Michael]

To get back to the question re: comparing suspects, let me just say that what makes everything so unpalatable is that of the top suspects, the more we know, the less likely they seem. This alone makes Kosminski stand out. If we find out more about him, he may become just as obscure as the others.

Mike

[Jonathan H]

Once more, Caz, I think you raise a penetrating objection based on every other criminal-maniac we know if; they don't confess to priests and they don't take their own lives unless the police are in hot pursuit (as the Druitt story will be later dressed up by Sims).

I argue that Macnaghten telling Sims that 'Dr D' confessed to physicians in a mental hospital, twice, that he had a compulsion to kill harlots, before the spree, is the fictionalised-redacted element of the truth; about Montie's confession after the murders to a priest, quite possibly his cousin.

All I can say is that I believe Macnaghten, the 'action man', would have investigated thoroughly, though with a class bias towards getting a deceased gent off the hook, and to prove to his anguished family, and/or the priest, they they have been -- thank God! -- misled by a man suffering from delusions, not homicidal desires.

Instead Mac, with all the countervailing factors not to believe such an embarrassing, even useless tale from the Yard's point of view (nobody to arrest, dead for years!), he, nevertheless, like the priest, like the brother, like the MP, like the people the latter he confided in, Mac believed too ...

From 1891 for Macnaghten it was not a mystery, and from 1898 he informed the public, anonymously, of the same opinion -- though discreetly veiled -- and from 1913/14 he confirmed it in his own knighted name, even conceding that the fiend was an entirely posthumous suspect who stopped because he suffered some kind of psychological implosion after Miller's Ct.

By the way, Montie feared going like mother, eg. into the asylum system, and the 'North Country Vicar' does not claim to have heard the confession himself, but is passing on the story from a brother priest, who presumably had instructions from 'Jack' himself to publish some kind of version of the truth on the tenth anniversary of the final murder (which to the police, except Mac and the Vicar, was Coles).

Even if all these gents were quite mistaken about Mad Montie, that he was merely delusional, it is a fascinating aspect of the Ripper saga one which has been given very little attention in secondary sources, some of them otherwise excellent.