How do Suspects compare?

[Wickerman]

To Wickerman

Inspector Byrnes invented, or consolidated the 'third degree' method of interrogation (eg. torture) and fitted up God knows how many 'suspects'.

Jonathan, we are dealing with a period in history where law enforcement often had to fight fire with fire. Fitting-up a guilty suspect, though considered wrong by most liberal thinkers, was often the only means of bringing those certain criminals to justice.
Irish street gangs were the scourge of New York City in the 19th century. Inspr. Byrnes showed no lack of compulsion to act against the worst of the criminal classes, which incidently, more often than not included the Irish.

So, when Stewart writes:

As an Irish American, Byrnes, whose regime was reported to be corrupt would have had little sympathy for an English policeman but, one suspects, would favour a fellow Irish American who was of wealthy means.'

With all due respect to Stewart, this is merely modern opinion from our initial Tumblety author.
Byrnes has already established himself as much a tyrant against his own Irish kind, so the implication offered here carries no weight at all.

An you put faith in that source?

As opposed to a role-playing, lying charlatan like Tumblety, are you kidding?

Regards, Jon S.

[Jonathan H]

To Bridewell

There was an issue of 'Ripperologist', a few years back, in which Andy Spallek published new photos of Druitt -- from the Winchester archive -- and they were a revelation as the latter seemed a much broader and more robust a figure than the classic pics would suggest.

If that was Druitt at 18, then one could imagine, as an athlete of some note, he looked pretty much the same at 31 -- but that's a guess of course.

Generically simply means of the same genre , eg. in this case age and race: an immigrant Jew is spotting a young Gentile. Well, that generically fits Druitt, not 'Kosminski' or Tumblety or Chapman (too Slavic-swarthy).

I don't really understand your other point?

To turn oneself into a 'proletarian' all Druitt has to do is dress down and adopt a working class accent -- if necessary. Why is that so difficult?

I also think that Druitt bears a generic resemblance to 'Knifeman' in Schwarz's rather different account to a newspaper.

As usual Tom Cullen, who argued for Druitt as the fiend based on Macnaghten's 'Aberconway' version, puts this very well in his polemical but masterly 'Autumn of Terror', 1965, p. 212:

'Probably the only reliable description of the Ripper was that furnished by Joseph Lawende, the commercial traveller, who saw Catherine Eddowes standing close to a man in Mitre Square just ten minutes before she was founf murdered. "It was bright moonlight, almost as light as day, and he saw them distinctly", remarks Major Henry Smith, the deputy City police commissioner, adding, "This was, without doubt, the murderer and his victim". Here is Lawende's description of the man: About 30 years of age, 5 ft. 9 in. in height, shabby appearance, fair complexion and having a small fair moustache, dressed in something like navy serge and wearing a cloth cap with with a peak. Note the 'shabby appearance'--we are a long way here from the music-hall villain wearing astrakan-trimmed coat and the spats, the horseshoe-shaped tiepin, the massive gold watch-chain with the red stone set in its seal. and the 'fair complexion, fair moustache' out us in another wolrd from those other villians--the dark, swarthy, barber-surgeons of Russian or Polish origin'

[Emphases Cullen's]

[Jonathan H]

To Wickerman

You asked why I called Inspector Byrnes corrupt? Because that is what primary and secondary sources tell us.

So you shift the goal-posts of the argument and claim that he was not currupt by the standards of his time, or some such dodge away from your mistake.

Well, he was, as he was sacked due to the standards of his own time.

I especially like your blink-and-you'll-miss-it borrow from the toxic, US 'culture wars' about being a 'liberal' eg. being a bleeding-heart softie on street scum, as if rights and laws are exclusively leftist concerns. They are just as likely to be Tory/Conservative values defended at all costs -- especially when property and corporate rights are under challenge.

Of course, you've missed the overall.

That is, an American police chief with a turf and rep to protect has an inherent, self-serving bias about rejecting such a notion as Jack the Ripper as an American, as an Irishman, and as loose in his jurisdiction.

Could Byrnes have been completely sincere in his public opinion about Tumblety? Of course. But as a primary source, its values and limitations for reliability have to be weighed up against itself, and in comparison with other sources.

[Wickerman]

As usual Tom Cullen, who argued for Druitt as the fiend based on Macnaghten's 'Aberconway' version, puts this very well in his polemical but masterly 'Autumn of Terror', 1965, p. 212:

Note the 'shabby appearance'--we are a long way here from the music-hall villain wearing astrakan-trimmed coat and the spats, the horseshoe-shaped tiepin, the massive gold watch-chain with the red stone set in its seal. and the 'fair complexion, fair moustache' out us in another wolrd from those other villians--the dark, swarthy, barber-surgeons of Russian or Polish origin'

Coincidently, among Druitt's effects were found a pair of kid gloves, a silver watch on a gold watch chain.
The 'red seal' may have been nothing more than the watch key hanging from the chain:


If Lawende's man was also BS-man, as some have speculated, you can rule out Druitt. I am a little surprised that anyone favouring Druitt as a suspect would lean towards Lawende's man as the best example.

Regards, Jon S.

[Jonathan H]

I'm frankly astonished, rather than a little surprised, at thinking that Broad-Shouldered man, who is dressed differently and assaulting a woman in plain view, could be considered 'Jack the Ripper' at all?

Certainly the police did not think so, and went with Lawende who described a man, chatting smoothly with a prostitute (perhaps she was delighted to discover his gentlemanly manners and toff accent?) who was a generic fit for Druitt: a young Gentile.

Your description of Druitt's effects on his corpse is not relevant, as his body was not found near the East End after a murder.

You're missing the overall: the man described by Hutchinson was a Hebrew, arguably the rich sinister Jew straight out of Victorian music hall, whereas Lawende described a fair man -- and Druitt appears to be fair in high school.

Interesting that Macnaghten went to such lengths to obliterate Lawende and his sighting from the public record, starting in 1898.

Lawende was the key witness, who had been brought in to 'confront' Tom Sadler, a Gentile sailor (and maybe William Grant too, another Gentile sailor) and said 'no'. This is what he is reduced to by Mac.

From 'Laying the Ghost of Jack the Ripper', Chapter IV of Mac's memoirs, 1914:

'The madman started off in search of another victim, whom he found in Catherine Eddowes. This woman's body, very badly mutilated, was found in a dark corner of Mitre Square. On this occasion it is probable that the police officer on duty in the vicinity saw the murderer with his victim a few minutes before, but no satisfactory description was forthcoming. During this night an apron, on which bloody hands had been wiped, was found in Goulburn Street (situated, if my memory is correct, about half-way between Berners Street and Mitre Square). Hard by was a writing in chalk on the wall, to the effect that " the Jews are the men who will not be blamed for nothing." The apron gave no clue, and the chalk writing was obliterated by the order of a high police official, who was seemingly afraid that a riot against the Jews might be the outcome of this strange " writing on the wall:' This was the only clue ever left behind by the murderer.

So, he completely reversed himself from the version he hustled to his cronies, and returned to the notion of the official version -- all witnesses are out. Except for the first and only time, the graffiti was in.

[Bridewell]

As usual Tom Cullen, who argued for Druitt as the fiend based on Macnaghten's 'Aberconway' version, puts this very well in his polemical but masterly 'Autumn of Terror', 1965, p. 212:

'Probably the only reliable description of the Ripper was that furnished by Joseph Lawende, the commercial traveller, who saw Catherine Eddowes standing close to a man in Mitre Square just ten minutes before she was founf murdered. "It was bright moonlight, almost as light as day, and he saw them distinctly", remarks Major Henry Smith, the deputy City police commissioner, adding, "This was, without doubt, the murderer and his victim". Here is Lawende's description of the man: About 30 years of age, 5 ft. 9 in. in height, shabby appearance, fair complexion and having a small fair moustache, dressed in something like navy serge and wearing a cloth cap with with a peak. Note the 'shabby appearance'--we are a long way here from the music-hall villain wearing astrakan-trimmed coat and the spats, the horseshoe-shaped tiepin, the massive gold watch-chain with the red stone set in its seal. and the 'fair complexion, fair moustache' out us in another wolrd from those other villians--the dark, swarthy, barber-surgeons of Russian or Polish origin'

With due respect to Tom Cullen, Lawende's description doesn't say 5' 9". The words "shabby", "navy" & "serge" don't appear either, as far as I can see - not in the primary sources anyway.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Bridewell,

There was no moon that night.

Regards,

Simon

[Bridewell]

I'm frankly astonished, rather than a little surprised, at thinking that Broad-Shouldered man, who is dressed differently and assaulting a woman in plain view, could be considered 'Jack the Ripper' at all?

Schwartz's description: Dark jacket & trousers. Black cap with peak.

Lawende's description: Pepper & salt colour loose jacket, grey cloth cap with peak of same colour. Reddish handkerchief tied in a knot round neck. Appearance of a sailor.

Allowing for the fact that Schwartz was interviewed through an interpreter, I think these could be descriptions of the same man. The main differences are actually height; Schwartz 5' 5" & Lawende: 5' 7-8". However, both Pc Smith & William Marshall also described a man seen on Berner St that night, who may have been the same individual. Smith says 5' 7", Marshall says 5' 6" - round cap with a small peak to it; something like what a sailor would wear.

Two men with the appearance of a sailor, both seen near a murder scene, with a victim, on the same night. I don't really understand why so many people are so reluctant to believe that these two women may have been victims of the same killer, especially as that is what the police believed at the time.

Witnesses, by the way, seldom, if ever, give identical descriptions of the same person, even when seen on the same occasion.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Bridewell]

No Moon

Hi Bridewell,

There was no moon that night.

Regards,

Simon

Hi, Simon,

Thanks. So the only available light source would be the notoriously feeble street lights?
Different lighting conditions on different streets - minor variation in descriptive detail?

Regards, Bridewell.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Bridewell,

Yes, that sounds about right.

Regards,

Simon

[lynn cates]

SB

Hello Dave. Was that the McGrath from the SB ledgers?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

held back

Hello Bridewell.

"Lawende's description doesn't say 5' 9". The words "shabby", "navy" & "serge" don't appear either, as far as I can see - not in the primary sources anyway."

Perhaps that was in the material that was reserved? As you recall, a good bit of Lawende's description was held back.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

club lad

Hello (again) Bridewell. Regarding the PC Smith siting (which, by the way, I consider the most reliable Liz siting that night), he was almost certainly a club lad. You might chat up Tom Wescott on that one. He measured his AF and the dimensions are about the same as the lad's bundle.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

To Wickerman
You asked why I called Inspector Byrnes corrupt? Because that is what primary and secondary sources tell us.

The sources present a picture of Byrnes being sometimes ruthless with the criminal classes, which included, and in some instances were predominantly Irish, or of Irish descent.
Yet you conveniently omit that aspect of his reputation. In fact, you also choose to blur the debate by suggesting Byrnes must have had sympathy's towards Irish criminals.

So you shift the goal-posts of the argument and claim that he was not currupt by the standards of his time, or some such dodge away from your mistake.

Remind us all Jonathan, when we were debating wired communications, newspaper claims & quotations given by the principal parties. Who was it who suddenly "shifted the goal posts" to bring up the Inspectors reputation?
I'll give you a minute to think about that.

I'm frankly astonished, rather than a little surprised, at thinking that Broad-Shouldered man, who is dressed differently and assaulting a woman in plain view, could be considered 'Jack the Ripper' at all?

Well, so am I, but thats the nature of the beast.
Even if he was Stride's killer, that does not mean he was also 'Jack', though that is the implication of the suggestion.

Your description of Druitt's effects on his corpse is not relevant, as his body was not found near the East End after a murder.

I mentioned it in passing, but I don't think we are expected to see the killer carrying a separate murder 'kit' which includes "murder gloves & a murder watch", never to be worn with regular attire.
Those possessions were obviously what he carried with him at regular intervals.

You're missing the overall: the man described by Hutchinson was a Hebrew, arguably the rich sinister Jew straight out of Victorian music hall, whereas Lawende described a fair man -- and Druitt appears to be fair in high school.

Mr Astrachan was deemed Jewish by the cut of his clothes, not by his facial features.
However, an Astrachan coat is indicative of east european fashion, but your Lawende "sailor" appearance is also not known to be your typical middle-class attire.
Which raises the question, if the killer can dress "down" to look like a sailor, why can he not also dress "up" to look like a toff?

Interesting that Macnaghten went to such lengths to obliterate Lawende and his sighting from the public record, starting in 1898.

If Mac. secretly harbored suspicions about Druitt, he played down Lawende's importance because he did not agree that sailor-boy represented his 'picture' of the murderer.

From 'Laying the Ghost of Jack the Ripper', Chapter IV of Mac's memoirs, 1914:

'The madman started off in search of another victim, whom he found in Catherine Eddowes. This woman's body, very badly mutilated, was found in a dark corner of Mitre Square. On this occasion it is probable that the police officer on duty in the vicinity saw the murderer with his victim a few minutes before, but no satisfactory description was forthcoming.

That last point is perfectly understandable given what we know today about what Lawende saw and how uncertain he claimed to be. I agree with Mac.

Regards, Jon S.

[Wickerman]

Hello (again) Bridewell. Regarding the PC Smith siting (which, by the way, I consider the most reliable Liz siting that night),

Yesssss!

....he was almost certainly a club lad.

Noooo!



A Jew (American-Jew, Lave?) wearing a deerstalker?


These were very class-conscious times Lynn, I think we disagree on that point.

Regards, Jon S.