How do Suspects compare?

[Wickerman]

"Do you think he is Jack the Ripper?" the Inspector was asked.

"I don't know anything about it, and therefore I don't care to be quoted. But if they think in London that they may need him, and he turns out to be guilty our men will probably have a good idea where he can be found."
[/I]

The subject was previously touched on the day before. Byrnes gave the same reply to the question of Tumblety being arrested for the "nominal offense", for which he jumped bail (in case the doctor is wanted he knew where to lay his hands on him), in the Evening Star Sayings of Dec 3rd.

The meaning of that last sentence is easily explained, "if Scotland Yard decide they need him for anything, I know where I can find him".
In a nutshell, that is what Byrnes is meaning, simply a general comment.

As you witnessed yourself, Byrnes completely sidestepped the "Jack the Ripper" issue by responding with:
"I don't know anything about it, and therefore I don't care to be quoted".
(end of discussion)

As he did not know anything about those accusations of murder, Scotland Yard have not approached him on the matter. He is either avoiding those current & false newspaper stories or he is intentionally lying to this reporter.

The former is the most likely due to the fact he has already declared that there is "no proof of his complicity in the murders" and therefore nothing that Tumblety is wanted for, for which he can be extradicted.
So there you have it, the subject is not one of murder suspect!

Note that Byrnes did not say, "Scotland Yard does not consider him a suspect in the Whitechapel murder case",

Well, in a manner of speaking he already did, by saying "there is no proof of his complicity in the Whitechapel murders". This knowledge could only come from Scotland Yard, it is not his place to speculate on the guilt of a private individual.

Regards, Jon S.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Mike,

I'm sorry you missed this newspaper article first time around.

May I therefore recommend you order a back copy of Ripperologist 106.

Regards,

Simon

[Jonathan H]

To Wickerman

I think what you are missing is that here we have a notoriously corrupt New York police chief who is essentially being asked: so what are you doing about the bloodthirsty Jack the Ripper, a fellow low-life Mick just like you, and who is now running loose in this city?

He' is hardly going to say that, yes, the British police might have something here. About a fellow Irishman and a fellow Yank and wishing to clam the public his reflexive position would be nothing to see here, move along.

People often do not tell the truth, or mean what they say, or do not tell the whole story -- especially if it is against their own interests -- except here in [certain] Ripperological circles, where sources are always telling the whole truth and nothing but, at least as they know it -- and the word 'self-serving' is banished.

[Wickerman]

To Wickerman

I think what you are missing is that here we have a notoriously corrupt New York police chief ......

Based on what?

Incidently, with respect to Druitt, would you have come across any reference to his height?

Regards, Jon S.

[harry]

Paul,
Everything you state is quite plausible.Yes the Ripper search had closed by the time of Thomson's appointment,but it must be bourne in mind that the Ripper had never been caught,and could be still alive,so there was reason why Thomson could have been interested.The author of the article I have mentioned,Alice Monaghan,might have been influenced by earlier writings,but it would be unwise to conclude that she was.Possible that her source was more plausible than Mccormick.

[Jonathan H]

To Wickerman

Inspector Byrnes invented, or consolidated the 'third degree' method of interrogation (eg. torture) and fitted up God knows how many 'suspects'. He was purged by the Protestant, wealthy, reformer Theodore Roosevelt in his attempts to clean up the New York police, in 1895.

I also quote from one of the greatest essays ever written on this subject, an excellent secondary source: 'A Slouch-Hatted Yank' by Stewart P. Evans:

'It is recorded elsewhere that Inspector Andrews of Scotland Yard, who had recently escorted a Canadian prisoner to Toronto, arrived from Montreal in New York during December in an effort to locate Tumblety. The then head of the New York Detective Department was Inspector Thomas Byrnes. As an Irish American, Byrnes, whose regime was reported to be corrupt would have had little sympathy for an English policeman but, one suspects, would favour a fellow Irish American who was of wealthy means.'

An you put faith in that source?

We do not have an exact measurement of Montague Druitt's height, but in Winchester photos he appears to be of medium stature and of medium build, with strong shoulders by the time he was 18 or so, and with an emerging moustache. He generically resembles Lawende's 'Jack the Sailor'.

[PaulB]

Thankyou Paul, yes I was aware that they cannot hold someone indefinitely, but I assumed it to be 24-48 hrs, afterall, it doesn't take days or weeks to establish the whereabouts of the suspect on the nights in question.




I agree, but this also means he still is "suspected of involvement in murder", which also means he could be "arrested on suspicion" in any country where Britian has an agreement for extradition.
Thats really what I'm getting at, the comments by Byrnes are crucial for us to understand the legal position the New York police were in.
As I outlined in my previous post, Byrnes opinions argues very strongly, almost conclusively, that Tumblety could not have been wanted for murder.

Best Wishes, Jon S.

Hi Jon
'Tumblety could not have been wanted for murder.'

Precisely. But Tumblety was only suspected, so on what grounds could he have been arrested and extradited?

Had the British police got anything solid on which to request Tumblety's arrest and extradition, they'd presumably have charged him themselves. Byrnes was stating the truth, but I don't see how it proves that the British police didn't suspect Tumblety, or that they weren't actively pursuing those suspicions. I mean, they had notorious woman hater who claimed medical experience who was apparently in Whitechapel and maybe visiting the murder scenes. That would make him a good suspect, but I doubt it would be sufficient to request extradition.

[PaulB]

Paul,
Everything you state is quite plausible.Yes the Ripper search had closed by the time of Thomson's appointment,but it must be bourne in mind that the Ripper had never been caught,and could be still alive,so there was reason why Thomson could have been interested.The author of the article I have mentioned,Alice Monaghan,might have been influenced by earlier writings,but it would be unwise to conclude that she was.Possible that her source was more plausible than Mccormick.

Hi Harry,
There is no reason why Thompson couldn't have been interested in the Jack the Ripper case, but the evidence doesn't suggest that he was. The Whitechapel murders were a quarter of a century old by the time Basil Thompson succeeded Macnaghten, Britain was heading towards a catastrophic war and Thompson was preoccupied with espionage and other threats to national stability. After the war he was preoccupied with Bolsheviks. Eve when writing about Scotland Yard's history, he only mentions Jack the Ripper in passing, which doesn't suggest a great interest.

Alice Monaghan may have other sources for Pedachenko, but we can't assume that she did. Pedachenko isn't known outside Le Queux, so he or McCormick are her likely source until it can be demonstrated otherwise. If it can be demonstrated then that would be great. I am not familiar with the article, however. When and where was it published?

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Jon
'Tumblety could not have been wanted for murder.'

Precisely. But Tumblety was only suspected, so on what grounds could he have been arrested and extradited?

Had the British police got anything solid on which to request Tumblety's arrest and extradition, they'd presumably have charged him themselves. Byrnes was stating the truth, but I don't see how it proves that the British police didn't suspect Tumblety, or that they weren't actively pursuing those suspicions. I mean, they had notorious woman hater who claimed medical experience who was apparently in Whitechapel and maybe visiting the murder scenes. That would make him a good suspect, but I doubt it would be sufficient to request extradition.

In order for extradition proceedings to have been commenced for an offence of murder.

1. A written request would have to have been made with the american authorities to arrest Tumblety

2.It would have been the case that they would have to prove to The American Autorities that there was a prima facie case against Tumblety. That would have to have to have entailed presenting the american authorites with copies of signed statements of witnesses in support of the evidence to actually show a prima facie case.

Hearsay would not have been acceptable

[Bridewell]

Er, Jon, they could only be detained for a specified time, then they had to be released or charged and brought before a magistrate.

That may have been how it was meant to be, but that's not how it was in practise. Even as late as the 1970's it was not unknown for a solicitor to arrive at the front door of one police station only for his client to be escorted out of the back door to another one. Solicitors sometimes had to resort to writs of habeas corpus in order to compel the police to either charge or release their clients. The Police & Criminal Evidence Act 1984 wasn't brought in on a whim; it was legislation to deal with a problem. Regardless of the rights and wrongs of the situation the police could, and did historically, detain people for considerable lengths of time without charge. If they thought they had the Ripper they would, I suspect, have run the risk of litigation rather than release him, once caught.

Tumblety, as a wealthy man, might have been able to secure his release by employing a solicitor to bring pressure to bear and, if necessary, apply for a writ of habeas corpus. However, there was no obligation on the police to notify anyone of a person's arrest and, in practise, a request for legal representation would probably have fallen on deaf ears. That's not how it should have been, but I would suggest that's how it was.

Regards, Bridewell.

[PaulB]

In order for extradition proceedings to have been commenced for an offence of murder.

1. A written request would have to have been made with the american authorities to arrest Tumblety

2.It would have been the case that they would have to prove to The American Autorities that there was a prima facie case against Tumblety. That would have to have to have entailed presenting the american authorites with copies of signed statements of witnesses in support of the evidence to actually show a prima facie case.

Hearsay would not have been acceptable

Thanks for the confirmation, Trevor. That's what I said.

[PaulB]

That may have been how it was meant to be, but that's not how it was in practise. Even as late as the 1970's it was not unknown for a solicitor to arrive at the front door of one police station only for his client to be escorted out of the back door to another one. Solicitors sometimes had to resort to writs of habeas corpus in order to compel the police to either charge or release their clients. The Police & Criminal Evidence Act 1984 wasn't brought in on a whim; it was legislation to deal with a problem. Regardless of the rights and wrongs of the situation the police could, and did historically, detain people for considerable lengths of time without charge. If they thought they had the Ripper they would, I suspect, have run the risk of litigation rather than release him, once caught.

Tumblety, as a wealthy man, might have been able to secure his release by employing a solicitor to bring pressure to bear and, if necessary, apply for a writ of habeas corpus. However, there was no obligation on the police to notify anyone of a person's arrest and, in practise, a request for legal representation would probably have fallen on deaf ears. That's not how it should have been, but I would suggest that's how it was.

Regards, Bridewell.

Well, that may all be true and I'm sure it is, but the fact is that Anderson's bete noir was that comparisons with foreign forces did not take into account the constraints habeus corpus placed on the British police, hence his claim that the police often knew a suspect was guilty but lacked the evidence to prove it, whereas foreign forces could detain the suspect indefinitely while they worked up their evidence. We must therefore ask how common it was for the police in the LVP to detain people on suspicion. There would be court cases, I imagine, where such wrongful detention was discussed, and from which an insight into how common it was could be gained?

[Cogidubnus]

London Dynamite Plot

Trying desperately to recall where I saw it, but wasn't there the case of the artist detained whilst trying to board the Isle of Wight ferry and held for three days?

Dave

[Bridewell]

We do not have an exact measurement of Montague Druitt's height, but in Winchester photos he appears to be of medium stature and of medium build, with strong shoulders by the time he was 18 or so, and with an emerging moustache. He generically resembles Lawende's 'Jack the Sailor'.

Do you mean that he resembled Lawende's 'Jack the Sailor' when he was 18, or that he also did so when he was 31?



"Age 30, ht 5ft. 7 or 8in. comp. fair, fair moustache, medium build, dress pepper & salt colour loose jacket, grey cloth cap with peak of same colour, reddish handkerchief tied in a knot round neck, appearance of a sailor".

"Generically":
1. Relating to or descriptive of an entire group or class
2. Biology Of or relating to a genus.
3.
a. Not having a brand name: generic soap.
b. Of or being a drug sold under or identified by its official nonproprietary or chemical name.
4. Grammar Specifying neither masculine nor feminine gender

I don't actually understand your use of "generically" in this context. Druitt was an upper-middle class man. I don't see how he can generically resemble a working-class sailor. I think Druitt, in whatever clothing, would look like what he was - a toff. I can see your argument for Druitt as JtR, but not as the man seen by Lawende.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Bridewell]

We must therefore ask how common it was for the police in the LVP to detain people on suspicion. There would be court cases, I imagine, where such wrongful detention was discussed, and from which an insight into how common it was could be gained?

Only if you were wealthy enough to bring the action. There was no legal aid.

Regards, Bridewell.