How do Suspects compare?

[caz]

Hi Jonathan,

Thanks - I'll take a look when time permits.

If you could prove beyond reasonable doubt that it was in fact Druitt who confessed to the north country vicar (presumably while said vicar was working down south?), that would be a good start.

But then again, didn't all sorts of less than sound mind confess to the murders at one time or another?

I understand that people who doubt their own sanity will often blame themselves for bad things that happen in the world around them, whereas serial killers tend to blame eveyone but themselves and tend only to confess when presented with overwhelming evidence against them. They also rarely commit suicide unless their power over life and death has been taken from them by the force of law, and they can only exercise it over themselves.

Druitt comes across as a truly tragic character who genuinely thought the best thing for everyone was for him to die. This doesn't seem to fit with a bloodthirsty mutilator who cared not a jot for all the unfortunate lives he set about destroying. If he was so full of remorse and self loathing, why not a full and detailed confession in writing to the police before taking his final swim?

Love,

Caz
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[lynn cates]

Dunham

Hello Mike. Read your piece. Well done. At one time I just assumed that Dunham had made up the whole story.

Time to reevaluate.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

mea culpa

Hello Caroline.

"I understand that people who doubt their own sanity will often blame themselves for bad things that happen in the world around them"

Uh-oh.

Cheers.
LC

[caz]

Thanks Mike.

You would have to demonstrate that Tumblety's 'unusual hatred of women' was not just Victorian speak for 'batting for the other side' or 'fanny dodger'. It does appear that the expression 'woman hater' was used in that sense and the uptight Victorians did consider it most unusual. Victoria herself wouldn't even admit that genuine Lesbians existed.

For me, the most promising point you make is that the Yorkshire Ripper found inspiration by looking at representations similar to this Florentine Venus monstrosity. I do think it highly likely that our man would have enjoyed gawping at such things - along with all the other hundreds of visitors for whom such 'attractions' were intended. And that's the fly in the ointment. Our man could have been any one of those visitors, and that's assuming he did take an interest. Tumblety presumably made no secret of his interests, whereas one might have expected the murderer himself to be a bit more discreet about it, like the husbands and fathers, wives and mothers, who went to see such exhibits.

Love,

Caz
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[PaulB]

[QUOTE=Trevor Marriott;214892][QUOTE=PaulB;214887]

A "habit". "Suspects" - plural. A habit is something done very often, even all the time, as in 'habitually', and 'suspects' mean more than one and probably several. I've had enough of you making false and generally derogatory remarks, Trevor, so substantiate that remark or withdraw it. Or Admin can consider this a complaint against you. And by substantiate it, I mean date, time and post, or cite book or article and page number.

As far as Tumblety is concerned: (1) Littlechild stated that Tumblety was a suspect, (2) Littlechild stated that Tumbety was a suspect and "a very likely one", (3) Chief Crowley offered Tumblety's handwriting in connection with his arrest on suspicion of involvement in the Whitechapel murders, (4) The US press extensively reported Tumblety's arrest on suspicion of involvement in the murders, (5) Tumblety admitted that he had been arrested on suspicion of involvement in the murders.



By evidence, you mean something more substantial than his admission that he was?



I have posted reasonable explanations but here you are again in your own inimtable way trying to twist things around yet again.

I am not going to get into a heated arguments with you the facts speak for themselves

Yoy clearly dont know the difference between suspects likley or prime and clearly dont know what remarks are derogatory or not.

I have no intention of withdrawing any remarks because I do not consider anyhting in that post to be derogatory. What was posted was my opinion.

You clearly would like me me out of the way because I am one who will stand up to you and challenge your beliefs and arguments and it seems you dont like that or cant handle it so you run to admin. Hmmmmmmmmmmm cheap shot if i may say so.

Trevor,
I don't give a damn about your opinion. But unless you can substantiate it, you shouldn't voice it, especially when it is derogatory and potentially libelous. You have said that I have a habit of propping up suspects. I don't. I don't even come near to doing it. So either substantiate it or have the guts to withdraw it.

The trouble is, Trevor, is that making such statements is what you do when trying to counter or diminish other people's arguments or when you have no sensible defense when challenged: there's a cartel withholding information from you there isn't), I habitually propping up non-starter suspects (I don't), Martin Fido back peddled a lot on his theory (he hasn't), Philip Hutchinson doesn't deliver to his customers (which you have refused to substantiate). Even now, challenged to substantiate something you have said and unable to doso, you twist it into a claim that I can't handle your challenges to my beliefs (as if you know what I believe anyway), when I simply think you should put up the evidence for the things you say and stop wasting people's time.

So sure, you can say it's a cheap shot. I don't much care what you say it is. But I am calling you to substantiate an accusation you have made.

[Jonathan H]

Once more, Caz, I think you raise a penetrating objection based on every other criminal-maniac we know if; they don't confess to priests and they don't take their own lives unless the police are in hot pursuit (as the Druitt story will be later dressed up by Sims).

I argue that Macnaghten telling Sims that 'Dr D' confessed to physicians in a mental hospital, twice, that he had a compulsion to kill harlots, before the spree, is the fictionalised-redacted element of the truth; about Montie's confession after the murders to a priest, quite possibly his cousin.

All I can say is that I believe Macnaghten, the 'action man', would have investigated thoroughly, though with a class bias towards getting a deceased gent off the hook, and to prove to his anguished family, and/or the priest, they they have been -- thank God! -- misled by a man suffering from delusions, not homicidal desires.

Instead Mac, with all the countervailing factors not to believe such an embarrassing, even useless tale from the Yard's point of view (nobody to arrest, dead for years!), he, nevertheless, like the priest, like the brother, like the MP, like the people the latter he confided in, Mac believed too ...

From 1891 for Macnaghten it was not a mystery, and from 1898 he informed the public, anonymously, of the same opinion -- though discreetly veiled -- and from 1913/14 he confirmed it in his own knighted name, even conceding that the fiend was an entirely posthumous suspect who stopped because he suffered some kind of psychological implosion after Miller's Ct.

By the way, Montie feared going like mother, eg. into the asylum system, and the 'North Country Vicar' does not claim to have heard the confession himself, but is passing on the story from a brother priest, who presumably had instructions from 'Jack' himself to publish some kind of version of the truth on the tenth anniversary of the final murder (which to the police, except Mac and the Vicar, was Coles).

Even if all these gents were quite mistaken about Mad Montie, that he was merely delusional, it is a fascinating aspect of the Ripper saga one which has been given very little attention in secondary sources, some of them otherwise excellent.

[The Good Michael]

To get back to the question re: comparing suspects, let me just say that what makes everything so unpalatable is that of the top suspects, the more we know, the less likely they seem. This alone makes Kosminski stand out. If we find out more about him, he may become just as obscure as the others.

Mike

[PaulB]

Thanks Mike.

You would have to demonstrate that Tumblety's 'unusual hatred of women' was not just Victorian speak for 'batting for the other side' or 'fanny dodger'. It does appear that the expression 'woman hater' was used in that sense and the uptight Victorians did consider it most unusual. Victoria herself wouldn't even admit that genuine Lesbians existed.

For me, the most promising point you make is that the Yorkshire Ripper found inspiration by looking at representations similar to this Florentine Venus monstrosity. I do think it highly likely that our man would have enjoyed gawping at such things - along with all the other hundreds of visitors for whom such 'attractions' were intended. And that's the fly in the ointment. Our man could have been any one of those visitors, and that's assuming he did take an interest. Tumblety presumably made no secret of his interests, whereas one might have expected the murderer himself to be a bit more discreet about it, like the husbands and fathers, wives and mothers, who went to see such exhibits.

Love,

Caz
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Caz,
"His feelings toward women were remarkable and bitter in the extreme." Doesn't Littlechild here indicate that Tumblety was more than just playing for the away team?

I've never thought Littlechild thought Tumblety was Jack the Ripper, his observation about Tumbelty that 'although a 'Sycopathia Sexualis' subject he was not known as a 'Sadist' (which the murderer unquestionably was)...' seemingly arguing against that - if he thought Jack was a sadist and thought that Tumblety wasn't one, he wouldn't have thought Tumblety was the Ripper - but he thought Tumblety was 'a very likely' suspect, presumably meaning a plausible one, and Littlechild, of all people, must have known that being homosexual didn't make one a 'likely' Ripper. Remarkable and bitter feelings towards woman would do though, don't you think?

[lynn cates]

top suspects

Hello Michael.

"To get back to the question re: comparing suspects, let me just say that what makes everything so unpalatable is that of the top suspects, the more we know, the less likely they seem."

I agree here. One wonders, then, why are they top suspects?

Cheers.
LC

[PaulB]

To get back to the question re: comparing suspects, let me just say that what makes everything so unpalatable is that of the top suspects, the more we know, the less likely they seem. This alone makes Kosminski stand out. If we find out more about him, he may become just as obscure as the others.

Mike

Personally, I think the problem stems from thinking that any of them was Jack the Ripper. The reality is that probably none of them were, and, anyway, they can't all have been unless you subscribe to the idea that all the murders were committed by different people, so somebody is going to be wrong. All we can do is hopefully ferret out how and why they became suspects. Only then can probabilities be assessed.

[PaulB]

Hello Michael.

"To get back to the question re: comparing suspects, let me just say that what makes everything so unpalatable is that of the top suspects, the more we know, the less likely they seem."

I agree here. One wonders, then, why are they top suspects?

Cheers.
LC

Depends what you mean by 'top suspects'.

[lynn cates]

suspects

Hello Mr. Begg. I am thinking of:

1. Sir Robert's definitely ascertained fact which, in conjunction with the marginalia, may point to AK.

2. Sir MLM's., "The more I think on it . . ."

3. Littlechild's, "A very likely one . . ."

Of course, I recognise these as merely private opinions. Still, many researchers have taken these pronouncements seriously.

Cheers.
LC

[mklhawley]

You would have to demonstrate that Tumblety's 'unusual hatred of women' was not just Victorian speak for 'batting for the other side' or 'fanny dodger'. It does appear that the expression 'woman hater' was used in that sense and the uptight Victorians did consider it most unusual. Victoria herself wouldn't even admit that genuine Lesbians existed.

Sounds like a future article for me!

"His feelings toward women were remarkable and bitter in the extreme." Doesn't Littlechild here indicate that Tumblety was more than just playing for the away team?

I've never thought Littlechild thought Tumblety was Jack the Ripper, his observation about Tumbelty that 'although a 'Sycopathia Sexualis' subject he was not known as a 'Sadist' (which the murderer unquestionably was)...' seemingly arguing against that - if he thought Jack was a sadist and thought that Tumblety wasn't one, he wouldn't have thought Tumblety was the Ripper - but he thought Tumblety was 'a very likely' suspect, presumably meaning a plausible one, and Littlechild, of all people, must have known that being homosexual didn't make one a 'likely' Ripper. Remarkable and bitter feelings towards woman would do though, don't you think?

Good point Paul.

Sincerely,

Mike

[PaulB]

Hello Mr. Begg. I am thinking of:

1. Sir Robert's definitely ascertained fact which, in conjunction with the marginalia, may point to AK.

2. Sir MLM's., "The more I think on it . . ."

3. Littlechild's, "A very likely one . . ."

Of course, I recognise these as merely private opinions. Still, many researchers have taken these pronouncements seriously.

Cheers.
LC

Right.

[caz]

Caz,
"His feelings toward women were remarkable and bitter in the extreme." Doesn't Littlechild here indicate that Tumblety was more than just playing for the away team?

I've never thought Littlechild thought Tumblety was Jack the Ripper, his observation about Tumbelty that 'although a 'Sycopathia Sexualis' subject he was not known as a 'Sadist' (which the murderer unquestionably was)...' seemingly arguing against that - if he thought Jack was a sadist and thought that Tumblety wasn't one, he wouldn't have thought Tumblety was the Ripper - but he thought Tumblety was 'a very likely' suspect, presumably meaning a plausible one, and Littlechild, of all people, must have known that being homosexual didn't make one a 'likely' Ripper. Remarkable and bitter feelings towards woman would do though, don't you think?

Hi Paul,

Ah yes, I had forgotten Littlechild's 'bitter in the extreme' observation. Hard to say how much he really knew about Tumblety's feelings, or what he meant by them being 'bitter in the extreme' towards women. But this doesn't imply any actual violent tendencies towards the fairer sex, so who knows? Many a disgruntled heterosexual hubby has expressed extremely bitter feelings towards womankind without ever thinking of ripping up female strangers in the night.

I always took Littlechild's 'not known as a 'Sadist'' comment to mean that he suspected he probably was, but had to concede there was nothing in his enormous dossier that confirmed it.

In other words, I do believe Littlechild thought Dr T fit his own ideas of who the ripper was likely to have been (assuming he wasn't just trying to put Sims off the scent of Dr D). But how much of his information about the man's 'feelings' was based on gossip, Chinese Whispers or good old Victorian prejudice, and how much depended on a belief that he had topped himself after the last murder (as opposed to turning up larger than life in America), I wouldn't like to guess.

Love,

Caz
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