No talent, or a moving target?

[Guest]

Hello all,

Just wanted to see If I might get some medical opinion on a thought that occurred to me, is it possible that the victims were moving either voluntarily, or involuntarily, after they had their throats cut?

Im referring to involuntary muscle spasms primarily, because its possible they were unconscious when that throat cut was made.

I just wondered if there might be some information that could help bridge the gap that exists between the medical opinions that felt the Ripper had knife skills and anatomical knowledge, and those that surmised he had none.

Could involuntary victim spasms account for some of the more jagged, sloppy if you will, mutilations?

Best regards all.

[sdreid]

Hi Michael,

I would assume it would be possible since I've seen my grandmother wring the heads off chickens and they would run around flapping their wings for probably 30 seconds afterward. We're all vertebrates.

<~~Me, when I was about 4 years old and saw that.

[Dan Norder]

For the jaggedness of the cuts to be the result of the victims moving around after death they would have had to have been dancing like the zombies in Michael Jackson's "Thriller" video.

[NOV9]

Hello all,

Just wanted to see If I might get some medical opinion on a thought that occurred to me, is it possible that the victims were moving either voluntarily, or involuntarily, after they had their throats cut?

Im referring to involuntary muscle spasms primarily, because its possible they were unconscious when that throat cut was made.

I just wondered if there might be some information that could help bridge the gap that exists between the medical opinions that felt the Ripper had knife skills and anatomical knowledge, and those that surmised he had none.

Could involuntary victim spasms account for some of the more jagged, sloppy if you will, mutilations?

Best regards all.

He would grab them by the neck, to silence them, and have control of them.
Some of the women were intoxicated so unconsciousness would probably come soon. So he would lay them down and position them so as not to get spray from the cut, bleeding them out.

If by some chance the victim-regained consciousness during the gutting, they may have had some struggle, but not for long. Choking on blood and being ripped apart.

I think Jack wanted to butcher them for his own satisfaction, and enjoyment. That was one of his signatures by the way.

Sorry for the long reply.


NOV9

[Doctor X]

I would assume it would be possible since I've seen my grandmother wring the heads off chickens and they would run around flapping their wings for probably 30 seconds afterward. We're all vertebrates.

Though the human spinal cord reflexes are rather different. They tend to be mass-suppressed by a transection initially. However, none of the victims had their spinal cords cut.

As such, the entire nervous system would have experiences a global loss of perfusion--as in, they bled out. Such people rapidly lose consciousness and die. They do not exhibit involuntary movements.

A more common example is a person who suffers a cardiac arrest. They literally drop to the ground.

Yours truly,

--J.D.

[sdreid]

In the film where Weidmann is executed on the guillotine, his body appears to be flopping around quite a bit after. At any rate, it would only take a half second of movement to cause some hesitation marks. A friend of mine said he saw a fellow military man run for several yards after his head was blown off. He was running at the time it was taken off.

[perrymason]

Could spasms occur as a result of the choking that took place just prior to the cut...as in muscles contracted in resistance now relaxing?

I do realize as Dan says, it wouldnt address all suspect skill wounds, but maybe some?

Best regards.

[Doctor X]

sdreid:

Those cases involve sudden high cord transection which none of the victims experienced.

perrymason:

Um . . . there . . . is . . . er . . . an involuntary reflex that occurs with strangulation . . . but . . . I do not think it is what you are looking for. . . .

Hank Venture: Ewwwwwwww!

Brock Sampson: Yeah, they never show you that part on TV. . . .

Anyways, once strangled and exsanguinated, the bodies would not move to the extent that could affect the incisions.

--J.D.

[sdreid]

The muscles do contract when they are cut on a living person. That was how they determined the Cleveland Torso victims, for the most part, were killed by decapitation.

[Doctor X]

Well . . . yes . . . in a living victim.

--J.D.

[Jon Guy]

Hello

Should the sloppy work exhibited by the killer be a factor in determining whether there is an indication of anatomical skill ?

Neat incisions and careful organ extractions are done for the patient`s health and well being, none of which are applicable to the apparent designs of our man.Basically, he has five minutes in the dark with a corpse.

If the uteri were the target,surely,this would interest someone who had some anatomical knowledge ?

[perrymason]

Hello

Should the sloppy work exhibited by the killer be a factor in determining whether there is an indication of anatomical skill ?

Neat incisions and careful organ extractions are done for the patient`s health and well being, none of which are applicable to the apparent designs of our man.Basically, he has five minutes in the dark with a corpse.

If the uteri were the target,surely,this would interest someone who had some anatomical knowledge ?

I think those are good questions and observations Jon. Many people feel the man who cuts womens abdomens and takes organs from there is really interested in the cutting, or blood, or perhaps the feeling of warm organs in his hands.

Im like you though. I think that in at least some of the Canonical 5, a case still remains possible for the killers specific intention of obtaining certain organs. Obviously not all 5 fit that type of objective....but neither are all 5 connected to any one person as yet. 2 women in that group fit that scenario, and I would think that to attempt such a feat in public, and in the dark, and in as few minutes as most surgeons said they could match the mutilations, no obvious signs of neatness should not quantify his possible knowledge or skill.

There are medical opinions that stated they saw both those things present.

Best regards.

[Doctor X]

Should the sloppy work exhibited by the killer be a factor in determining whether there is an indication of anatomical skill ?

Yes.

Neat incisions and careful organ extractions are done for the patient`s health and well being, none of which are applicable to the apparent designs of our man.Basically, he has five minutes in the dark with a corpse.

However, he made the wrong incisions and used the wrong tools even for a dissection. Using both would have made his job easier you see.

If the uteri were the target,surely,this would interest someone who had some anatomical knowledge ?

The point is what "some anatomical knowledge" means. It can be enough that you looked at an anatomical atlas to know the general region. Actually, for the uterus you would not need that since there is . . . well . . . a rather easy way to . . . um . . . locate it.

Unless the kidney was a serendipitous discovery; however, its taking indicates that Jack had to at least know where it was located. Again, he does not demonstrate surgical skill in taking it per the descriptions. As other posters have noted, such knowledge would be routine for anyone who has butchered an animal. Frankly he had to just know the location.

One is left with a "range," and I think Jack falls somewhere in the big "middle." His failure to use the proper tools, the proper technique, and everything else indicates he lacked surgical and dissection skills.

His ability to find the kidney suggests he had to at least know the location. So he was not a completely ignorant either. Which means . . . one is left with a rather large range. One can argue in either direction. I think his previous efforts indicate more towards the "less knowledgeable," but that is my speculation.

Yours truly,

--J.D.

[Jon Guy]

Can`t argue with that, J.D. However, couple of points in return.

Would someone like that scruffy swine seen with Eddowes in Church Passage really have had the correct tools. I`d be surpised if he could afford a regular bed for the night.

If one looks at the in situ sketch of Eddowes in Mitre Sq it shows her fully clothed, could he access a kidney from the side ? Surely, he did the most practical thing ?

A question for you regarding the removal of Mary Kelly`s heart, the pericardium was open and the heart absent. I have just discovered that the pericardium is the sac round the heart, could he not have swiped this out complete with heart, or did he demonstrate such knowledge that he knew to open the pericardium to excise the heart ?

[perrymason]

Just as a point of order, saying his skill appears to be that of a simple Butchers is indeed saying he had anatomical knowledge...of animals. Had Pigs been one of his specialties in the meat shop, he would also have a very similar anatomical knowledge of the internal layout and organ descriptions relating to humans.

If he had butcher skills, he had anatomical knowledge, and if you know of butchers, you will know that Pigs are indeed the source of Pork.

So I think saying he had no anatomical knowledge beyond that of a Butcher really just eliminates some professions, a surgeon or doctor...not skill or knowledge.

Best regards all.