What was withheld??

[Wickerman]

Hi there,

I've been wondering for a while now if MJK's heart was thrown on the fire by the murderer. A case of 'may you burn in Hell', bearing in mind the heart had for centuries been assumed to be the centre of our emotions.

Any thoughts?

Carol

"A minute search has been made by the police and medical men in the room where the crime was committed, but practically nothing in the nature of a clue has been obtained........ and the ashes in the fireplace, which have been carefully sifted, reveal no traces, it is stated, of human flesh or clothing."
Irish Times, 12 Nov. 1888.

Regards, Jon S.

[RedBundy13]

Heart in the firepalce...

If there was no heart found in the fireplace how did that rumor get started anyway? Maybe it started because her heart was missing and since the killer had burnt some clothing and other items it could have been assumed that he burnt her heart as well?
Or maybe the police started that rumor because they didnt want it to get out to the public and newspapers that the killer actually took her heart because they might have been hoping that maybe he would mail it to them like he did(or may have did) with Eddowes kidney???

[Rubyretro]

I always thought that there was a question as to whether the heart was missing from the room, or just missing from the torso ?

[curious]

what was withheld

Was there ever an official statement about what was in the bucket/pail that was removed from Millers Court, with a newspaper over it to hide its contents?

One newspaper I read speculated that it was part of the body.

But was there ever any official statement/explanation?

[Jon Guy]

For those interested in Kelly`s absent heart and haven`t read it already, this is worth a read:

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/dst-yostheart.html

[RedBundy13]

Was there ever an official statement about what was in the bucket/pail that was removed from Millers Court, with a newspaper over it to hide its contents?

One newspaper I read speculated that it was part of the body.

But was there ever any official statement/explanation?

Hi curious,
Maybe it was just a bedpan? I read somewhere that buckets were frequently used as bedpans back then.

[curious]

Hi curious,
Maybe it was just a bedpan? I read somewhere that buckets were frequently used as bedpans back then.

Hi, RedBundy,

Interesting name, I recognize Bundy, of course, but why RedBundy?

And, that's a possibility of course. But would the police have covered it with a newspaper and taken it with them? Or would it have been emptied?

[Carol]

"A minute search has been made by the police and medical men in the room where the crime was committed, but practically nothing in the nature of a clue has been obtained........ and the ashes in the fireplace, which have been carefully sifted, reveal no traces, it is stated, of human flesh or clothing."
Irish Times, 12 Nov. 1888.

Regards, Jon S.

Thank you very much, Jon.
Carol

[Carol]

For those interested in Kelly`s absent heart and haven`t read it already, this is worth a read:

http://www.casebook.org/dissertation...yostheart.html

Hi Jon,
Thank you very much for the link, which I have just now read. Really interesting, I think.
Carol

[RedBundy13]

Hi, RedBundy,

Interesting name, I recognize Bundy, of course, but why RedBundy?

It was just a name that me and my friends had used a long time ago for instant messaging. My brother had the name YoungBundy on and adult S&M board where he was trying to meet older women. We thought that that name was kinda funny and creepy at the same time. So one day when me and one of my friends were gonna mess around with this girl we knew on the IM site we had to come up with a diff name she wouldnt know who we were. And since my friend has red hair and we remembered my brothers kinda funny/creepy S&M name we went with RedBundy.
Sorry about the kind of long reply, im not sure if you wanted that in depth of an answer but it is what it is I guess.

[Rubyretro]

Gosh, Redbundy -did you really need to tell us that about your brother ? It put me off my lunch.

[curious]

It was just a name that me and my friends had used a long time ago for instant messaging. My brother had the name YoungBundy on and adult S&M board where he was trying to meet older women. We thought that that name was kinda funny and creepy at the same time. So one day when me and one of my friends were gonna mess around with this girl we knew on the IM site we had to come up with a diff name she wouldnt know who we were. And since my friend has red hair and we remembered my brothers kinda funny/creepy S&M name we went with RedBundy.
Sorry about the kind of long reply, im not sure if you wanted that in depth of an answer but it is what it is I guess.

Well, it certainly was not an answer I was expecting.

Thanks for the chuckle. And Ruby's reply made me laugh out loud.

[Bridewell]

On Balance

For those interested in Kelly`s absent heart and haven`t read it already, this is worth a read:

http://www.casebook.org/dissertation...yostheart.html

It is interesting that this ambiguity doesn't seem to have been raised at the time. You would have thought that the coroner, or a member of the jury, would have asked the question:

"When you say that the heart was absent, doctor, do you mean that it was absent entirely, or simply absent from the body?"

Exact wording: "The Pericardium was open below & the Heart absent".

The account that Abberline checked the ashes in the grate for traces of flesh suggests that there was something unaccounted for. On the balance of probabilities, therefore, I would argue that the heart was absent entirely. The location of other body parts is recorded in detail, so why not that of the heart if it was known?

Juist by way of a counter-intuitive question: there was so much mis-information circulating, in the press and elsewhere, was there any real need for the police to withhold significant detail?

Regards, Bridewell.

[Wickerman]

What might be worthy of note is that the brief 'autopsy' conducted by Dr. Bond mentioned the fact that organs were removed ie; Liver, Kidney's, Uterus, intestines, spleen & heart. This report describes the scene at Millers Court before the body was removed for the official post-mortem.

Each organ was also identified in it's location on the bed, except the heart.
From this I would assume the doctor could not find another location in the room for the heart. Therefore "absent" in this case, on the afternoon of the 9th means, not found in the room.

It should be worth noting that this list of findings written by Dr Bond is not "the post-mortem". It was the responsibility of Dr. Phillips to conduct the official post-mortem, which he did on the 10th, and sadly has not survived.
However, at the conclusion of the official autopsy something was missing.

Dr. Phillips and Dr. MacDonald (Coroner) returned to Millers Court in the afternoon of Saturday and they supervised the passing of the ashes through a sieve, "it was subjected to a close scrutiny by the medical gentlemen".
The Sunday Times, 11 Nov. 1888.

Nothing by way of a clue was found.

The fact the ashes were scrutinized by medical men, as opposed to the police, strongly suggests they were looking for body parts or human tissue.

Bond's summary of the Whitechapel murders (HO 144/221/A49301C, ff. 220-3)
is dated by him as written on Saturday 10th Nov. As Bond also assisted in the official post-mortem in the afternoon of the 10th, this summary must have been written in the evening. In this summary Bond refers to the annexed report, his "brief autopsy" previously mentioned.

That being the case, if the heart had been found during the official post-mortem in the afternoon of the 10th Bond would hardly have written "absent" leaving the issue open, on his own autopsy notes.

I've long intended to ask Stewart about these dates because something needs clarifying.
Bond's "brief autopsy" is dated 16th Nov., yet the Summary to which his autopsy notes were annexed is dated 10th Nov. However, this complete package appears to have been stamped 'received', 14th Nov.

Regards, Jon S.

[sdreid]

It is interesting that this ambiguity doesn't seem to have been raised at the time. You would have thought that the coroner, or a member of the jury, would have asked the question:

"When you say that the heart was absent, doctor, do you mean that it was absent entirely, or simply absent from the body?"

Exact wording: "The Pericardium was open below & the Heart absent".

Yes, it is curious. It seems like such an important point to just be glossed over.