Accusations of a Ripper "cabal" (Moved from another thread)

[PaulB]

Someone just asked me if I were being sincere or sarcastic in my request. I want to state: The request is 100 percent completely sincere, with not a trace of sarcasm meant anywhere in it.

If the problem here is that no one got off their high horse to just make a polite request, then that is totally wrong. The first step should absolutely have been a sincere and polite request to the persons involved and I meant my request sincerely and politely with no irony or sarcasm whatsoever and I am sorry if anything in my wording made it seem otherwise.

Ditto the reply.

I should make one small correction. As said, I understand that the AV will be published, so clearly somebody asked, and asked a while back, and an agreement was reached.

And to quote Ally, 'And now back to our regularly scheduled programming: So Trevor, any shred of proof, whatsoever?'

(Be careful, though Ally and Monty, if you push him he'll call you a 'muppet' full of 'wind and piss'!)

[Ally]

Someone just asked me if I were being sincere or sarcastic in my request. I want to state: The request is 100 percent completely sincere, with not a trace of sarcasm meant anywhere in it.

If the problem here is that no one got off their high horse to just make a polite request, then that is totally wrong. The first step should absolutely have been a sincere and polite request to the persons involved and I meant my request sincerely and politely with no irony or sarcasm whatsoever and I am sorry if anything in my wording made it seem otherwise.

[Ally]

Thanks Paul.

And now back to our regularly scheduled programming:

So Trevor, any shred of proof, whatsoever?

[PaulB]

Ah okay. Let me remedy that. As I do not have the relevant email addresses, I am going to have to do it publicly.


Dear Sirs, It has come to my attention that you have a copy of the Aberconway version of the MM. There are many interested parties who would be delighted and forever grateful if you could see your way clear to posting the documents in such a manner that all would have an opportunity to read them. I am sure one of the Ripper Magazines or one of the forums would be delighted to receive and publish the material. As you know, there is a keen interest in viewing this material, and we would all be very grateful if you could find it in your heart to allow us access.

Thank you for your consideration.

Ally

Ah, okay.

Of course, Ally. Leave it with me and I'll do everything within my power to accede to your request.

[Ally]

the point is that nobody asked, politely or not.

Ah okay. Let me remedy that. As I do not have the relevant email addresses, I am going to have to do it publicly.


Dear Sirs, It has come to my attention that you have a copy of the Aberconway version of the MM. There are many interested parties who would be delighted and forever grateful if you could see your way clear to posting the documents in such a manner that all would have an opportunity to read them. I am sure one of the Ripper Magazines or one of the forums would be delighted to receive and publish the material. As you know, there is a keen interest in viewing this material, and we would all be very grateful if you could find it in your heart to allow us access.

Thank you for your consideration.

Ally

[PaulB]

Actually....what's the point?? I don't quite get it. Because no one cared previously, why should anyone care now? It doesn't really matter what prompted the sudden interest, does it? If people are interested now, they are. And the "nyah, nyah" only comes in when everyone is being told, if you'd been more polite in how you asked maybe we would have let you see it.

No, the point is that nobody asked, politely or not.

And no one has said that they are. But neither should the dangle that information in front of us, and go, "we have it, and you can't see it". No, they don't have to give it to us. As I have said previously, they can do whatever they like with their research including lighting it on fire or using it as toilet paper.

I'm sorry, Ally, but nobody tauntingly dangled the AV in front of you and said you can't see it. It's been about for 20 years and you never asked to see it, and never gave it a second thought. All that's happened is that it was going to be published in the next A to Z, although an earlier publication elsewhere had long been discussed and will hopefully come to fruition very soon, and that Trevor's nasty insinuations dashed any immediate thought of it being published on the internet. If the explanation of what happened is perceived as dangling the AV in front of you, thet wasn't the intention.

But if you aren't going to show it, don't talk about it on a public forum, because then you open yourself up for the kinds of bad feeling and accusations like what is happening now. Taunting of that nature, NEVER goes well for the person doing the taunting.

That's a very fair comment, although some consideration should be given to the fact that it had been stated that the AV will be published and Stewart observed that publication will probably be a disappointment because all or most of the differences between it and the SY version have been published anyway.

[Monty]

Oh I'm fully aware Trevor won't respond Ally.

He has nothing so won't reply.

To be honest, I am bored shedless with this MM debate. Surely there's a proper home for it.

I want to keep the airwaves open incase I get a close encounter of the first kind from Trevor.

Monty

[PaulB]

Is there something wrong with me that seems all so, well, so obvious...?

No, I'm afraid it has always been the trailblazer's lot to blaze the trail alone, their personal Grail only clearly visible to them. When the path is eventually clear, others will follow. Or the path grows over again and unfortunately the history of human endeavour is littered with the corpses of the many who failed in their quest, but other succeed and the world is changed. Not knowing your destiny is part of the adventure of life, the belief that one day you will open the eyes of those who wish to see.

[Ally]

Well, that's the point: It's been out there, known about, extracts published, and so on and so on for over two decades and hardly anyone has given a damn, then all of a sudden it becomes a 'big thing' and people like yourself want to see it and, perhaps understandably, perceive an element of 'nyah nyah' in those who have seen it.

Actually....what's the point?? I don't quite get it. Because no one cared previously, why should anyone care now? It doesn't really matter what prompted the sudden interest, does it? If people are interested now, they are. And the "nyah, nyah" only comes in when everyone is being told, if you'd been more polite in how you asked maybe we would have let you see it.

That said, there is absolutely no requirement on anyone to publish or otherwise make their research material available or do anything with it at all. We're all grateful when they do, but they don't have to.

And no one has said that they are required to make it available. But neither should they dangle that information in front of us, and go, "we have it, and you can't see it". No, they don't have to give it to us. As I have said previously, they can do whatever they like with their research including lighting it on fire or using it as toilet paper.

But if you aren't going to show it, don't talk about it on a public forum, because then you open yourself up for the kinds of bad feeling and accusations like what is happening now. Taunting of that nature NEVER goes well for the person doing the taunting.

[Ally]

Wow,

Trevors Jedi mind tricks seemed to have worked.

Again, Trevor.....have you any evidence blah blah blah.

Monty

Oh we long since gave up on Trevor providing any sort of support for his ludicrous claims and redeeming himself in the slightest.

I think it's cute you still have hope he'll do something credible.

But I support your endeavor. So Trevor: any support, factual argument or single piece of evidence to back up your claims?

[PaulB]

Hi Paul,

As for me asking to see it for myself, no I am afraid I haven't and I won't.

As I told someone else, I presume that such a request comes with a promise of secrecy that I will not make. If this hadn't been made such a big deal, with "we were going to publish it, but now not" and the general feeling of "nyah nyah" that goes along with those who have seen it now, I would have, however I only became aware of it after it had become a huge deal on the boards and became some sort of "haves vs. the have nots".

I will see it, or not see it, when everyone else does.

Well, that's the point: It's been out there, known about, extracts published, and so on and so on for over two decades and hardly anyone has given a damn, then all of a sudden it becomes a 'big thing' and people like yourself want to see it and, perhaps understandably, perceive an element of 'nyah nyah' in those who have seen it. Nobody is actually doing that, but we made the effort to ask. That said, there is absolutely no requirement on anyone to publish or otherwise make their research material available or do anything with it at all. We're all grateful when they do, but they don't have to.

[Monty]

Wow,

Trevors Jedi mind tricks seemed to have worked.

Again, Trevor.....have you any evidence blah blah blah.

Monty

[PaulB]

You know while such flagrant displays of extravagance like this may be the proverbial fingernails scraping down the proletariate soul of bolshie pinkos like Tom, for the rest of us it's a shining example of the dizzying heights to which we mere mortals may one day aspire. To grasp the gherkin of opportunity, to nibble the cod of literary achievement--nay, to sip the very nectar of success and adulation: of such gossamer threads are the dreams of ordinary Ripperologists woven. The furtile soil in which our ambitions are cultivated and the tendrils of our literary efforts burst forth.

I did give serious thought to the wisdom of shedding a little light on the way Ripper authors debauch themselves on the fortunes generated by their books, but I thought the offence it might give some was outweighed by the spur such heady heights might give to others.

[Ally]

Hi Paul,

As for me asking to see it for myself, no I am afraid I haven't and I won't.

As I told someone else, I presume that such a request comes with a promise of secrecy that I will not make. If this hadn't been made such a big deal, with "we were going to publish it, but now not" and the general feeling of "nyah nyah" that goes along with those who have seen it now, I would have asked to see it, however I only became aware of it after it had become a huge deal on the boards and became some sort of "haves vs. the have nots".

I will see it, or not see it, when everyone else does.

[PaulB]

It is all very well and good for people who have been privileged to see a copy of the Aberconway to look down and go "Oh it's not that important, there's nothing there" but you will forgive us lowly peons if we'd actually prefer to see the exact document and text for ourselves. It's this idiotic little quirk some people have about seeing a source for themselves, rather than just accepting the opinions of those on high, regarding its value and what we should think about it.

It's only two people who have the AV discussing it between themselves, Ally, and have you ever asked to see the material for yourself? Keith and Martin Howells wrote about it in their 1987 book and extracts have been published at various times down the years, yet only now has anyone started beating at the gates to see the document. It's never been hidden, it's content hasn't been wrapped in secrecy, a copy has been given to those who asked for it. I don't know who has asked Keith for a copy, or whose has been refused a copy, but there's only one person I can recall who asked me and that was recently. But when did it become required or customary for an author to make his source and research materials available to others? Authors hopefully cite their source and if you are lucky they give the location, although sometimes it can be simply given as 'private collection' if it isn't publicly accessible. If someone wants to see it then it is generally their responsibility to track it down for themselves. It may not be wholly satisfactory, but isn't it the way things are?