Where did the Ripper likely live?

[Hunter]

The reality is that we have no evidence of anyone being stopped and asked to empty their pockets and show their hands for blood. It didn't happen, so the threat of police searches was minimal as was the threat from vigilantes.

Inspr. Collard reported that several men were stopped and searched in the aftermath of the Mitre Square murder.

[Garry Wroe]

The reality is that we have no evidence of anyone being stopped and asked to empty their pockets and show their hands for blood. It didn't happen, so the threat of police searches was minimal as was the threat from vigilantes.

Really, FM? According to Walter Dew, ‘The most obscure corners were periodically visited. All suspicious characters were stopped and questioned.’

And again: ‘Constables going on duty had very definite instructions. They were told to pull up and search any man whose actions raised the slightest doubt in their minds, and, if the answer given were not satisfactory, to bring such men to the police station while inquiries about them were made.’

Apart from Dew’s recollections, there are copious indications that investigators sought to snare their quarry by adopting a stop and search strategy.

Or do you think that those hunting the killer were unaware of basic policing procedures?

[Garry Wroe]

Sorry, Hunter. It seems that you have already made my point for me. Ever the bridesmaid, never the bride.

[Limehouse]

Really, FM? According to Walter Dew, ‘The most obscure corners were periodically visited. All suspicious characters were stopped and questioned.’

And again: ‘Constables going on duty had very definite instructions. They were told to pull up and search any man whose actions raised the slightest doubt in their minds, and, if the answer given were not satisfactory, to bring such men to the police station while inquiries about them were made.’

Apart from Dew’s recollections, there are copious indications that investigators sought to snare their quarry by adopting a stop and search strategy.

Or do you think that those hunting the killer were unaware of basic policing procedures?

Additionally - there are press reports of 'suspects' (often just jibbering wanderers or strangers or eccentrics) being chased down the street by mobs of men and women sure they had identified 'jack the ripper'. This is an indication of the terror and hysteria produced by the murders and the determination of many to apprehend anyone acting or appearing 'different'.

It is likely therefore that the killer did know the area well and knew which courts and alleyways to disappear down without getting lost or cornered by police or a 'mob'.

[Fleetwood Mac]

[QUOTE=Garry Wroe;188616]Really, FM? According to Walter Dew, ‘The most obscure corners were periodically visited. All suspicious characters were stopped and questioned.’

What constitutes a suspicious character? And, I suppose the contradictory nature of this statement is this: if these characters were so suspicious, then surely we have evidence of a fair number of these characters, stopped after one of the murders, being taken to a police station for further questioning?

Stopped and questioned: which would produce what results? Simple answer: just finished work or going to work, or anything, and could the police prove otherwise on the spot? In actual fact, what results did this produce? Zero. That's the evidence. Thinking about it, you're lending weight to my contention: all this stopping and searching and the police couldn't come up with anything remotely approaching a conviction. Tells a story: which is that the police had a very difficult job on their hands unless they managed to catch him red handed.

Alternatively, the conclusion that some appear to be forming is that he wasn't seen by anyone all the way home and therefore he knew the streets. JTR couldn't control who was in what street when, of course, and he didn't need to because experience tells us that the police were left clueless, literally.

Too many variabilities for my liking; I'll go for the easiest option.

[Lechmere]

Ben
I have to agree that it is exceptionally unlikely that the Ripper would have lived as far east as Bow or Bromley-by-Bow. Particularly someone who only briefly lived in the East End and had a vague connection with Whitechapel.
And a close up look at a contemporary map reveals many small inter-connecting roads, alleyways and courts, throughout Whitechapel and Spitalfields. I know that people who are unfamiliar with the area today (and the layout has been drastically simplified) quickly get disorientated.
So the evidence points to someone who knew the streets – probably walked them regularly.

And a further point on potential recognition... if we presume the Ripper was local for a moment, had he been seen by someone he knew, even vaguely, while in the company of a victim, just before the deed, then he could have just stopped and moved on. End of problem.

And yes Fleetwood – press reports (if we may believe them) frequently mention people being stopped and questioned in the vicinity of the murders, as the police fanned out. I guess if they didn’t have a knife on them and spots of blood on their cuffs, and a good plausible reason for being there then they were let go – and frequently people were hauled in for questioning at the police station, and this is also regularly mentioned in the press.

[Monty]

There is a report, going from memory here, where it was stated that only strangers in the area were stop searched by the local Bobbies.

However, to the supplement PCs everyone woud have been a stranger.

Also, there is more to the 'was Jack a local' question than the knowledge of streets. The movement of local people throughout the day should also be considered.

Monty

[Lechmere]

"The movement of local people throughout the day should also be considered."

Eh?

[Garry Wroe]

It is likely therefore that the killer did know the area well and knew which courts and alleyways to disappear down without getting lost or cornered by police or a 'mob'.

Agreed entirely, Limehouse, though the mob activity tended to occur when the streets were more densely populated. The killer was clearly an individual who understood the principle of risk and reward, hence his propensity to strike when the streets were all but deserted. Just as this strategy would have virtually guaranteed a number of women desperate to earn sufficient to pay their doss, it would have permitted him to listen out for the clumping boots of approaching policemen and thus either escape or avoid the kind of situation that might have resulted in his capture. Simple but effective.

[Garry Wroe]

What constitutes a suspicious character?

How about the soldier questioned by PC Barrett close to what would prove to be the Tabram crime scene?

Stopped and questioned: which would produce what results? Simple answer: just finished work or going to work, or anything, and could the police prove otherwise on the spot?

They could if a search of the man's pockets turned up a sharp long-bladed knife and sundry human body parts.

[Wickerman]

FM, do you not recall that the police even checked Barnett's clothes for blood?, and he was not a suspect, he walked in as a witness.
Does that brief example not suggest to you that the police knew what to look for, and acted accordingly?

Regards, Jon S.

[Fleetwood Mac]

How about the soldier questioned by PC Barrett close to what would prove to be the Tabram crime scene?

They could if a search of the man's pockets turned up a sharp long-bladed knife and sundry human body parts.

The point I'm making Garry is this: how many police witness statements do we have of a PC emptying someone's pockets on the streets in say a half an hour period after a body was found? Once half an hour is out of the way, he's long gone.

[Fleetwood Mac]

FM, do you not recall that the police even checked Barnett's clothes for blood?, and he was not a suspect, he walked in as a witness.
Does that brief example not suggest to you that the police knew what to look for, and acted accordingly?

Regards, Jon S.

No, Jon. I think that would have been an obvious policy for a man known to her.

I'm not saying the police didn't know what to look for.

But I am saying that the inquest testimonies tell us that the police on the beat spent a lot of time running around fetching other police and doctors but not actually emptying pockets. I do recall a search of Mitre Square and its immediate environs taking place; I'd hazard a guess that this was to check if someone was in hiding.

Why the police didn't empty pockets is open to debate. Perhaps they didn't have organs on their mind; perhaps they didn't fancy challenging a man with a knife.

Look at Cross, Goulston Street etc, the lack of people identified by witnesses, the like of Blotchy and Sailor who disappeared without trace; and, ultimately, the lack of getting anywhere near apprehending the killer - and you have a situation that tells us that the police had a difficult job on their hands. You didn't have to be particularly cunning or local in the East End of London. Someone, completely innocent and local, must have been in the vicinity just after the murders - but no record of a local man identified by a witness and asked to account for his actions.

Now, according to Levy, our sailor was a rough looking fella, or perhaps a 'suspicious character'. Why did he disappear without trace? Answer, he didn't. He walked down the street and was just another fella who had been out in the pubs and was now looking for a lodging house (or something like that).

Applying reason to this, which is the best bet:

a) Ducking in and out of doorways and sneaking around in warrens to avoid people in the street? Once seen then you really would have aroused suspicion.

b) Bluff it out. Walk down the street like the next man.

I know which I'd go with.

[Adam Went]

Fleetwood:

Just reverting to your earlier response to my last post, yes, you do make some good points and are quite right that the risk was minimal that Jack would be pulled up on the streets. However, the attitude in the East End at the time was a fickle one - it took only one person to scream out "Jack the Ripper!" or "Leather Apron!" and there'd be a lynch mob on the persons tail. Look at John Pizer.

So it didn't have to be a policeman, necessarily - yes, the risk was minimal, but the risk was there just the same, and attitudes could change as quickly as a click of the fingers.

It's also a good argument for why he may have used thoroughfares as opposed to quiet streets and alleys in order to affect his escape and return to his residence, as the numbers of police on the streets at the time, even with the excess numbers, could not possibly have checked everybody in the busier areas even if they had made the effort to do so.

But aside from all that, it's still difficult to believe that if he was a genuine local, unless he spent his entire life indoors and alone, that nobody ever would recognise him - friends, workmates depending on his occupation, etc - especially if he was using the thoroughfares! So it works both ways there.

Cheers,
Adam.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Fleetwood:

Just reverting to your earlier response to my last post, yes, you do make some good points and are quite right that the risk was minimal that Jack would be pulled up on the streets. However, the attitude in the East End at the time was a fickle one - it took only one person to scream out "Jack the Ripper!" or "Leather Apron!" and there'd be a lynch mob on the persons tail. Look at John Pizer.

So it didn't have to be a policeman, necessarily - yes, the risk was minimal, but the risk was there just the same, and attitudes could change as quickly as a click of the fingers.

It's also a good argument for why he may have used thoroughfares as opposed to quiet streets and alleys in order to affect his escape and return to his residence, as the numbers of police on the streets at the time, even with the excess numbers, could not possibly have checked everybody in the busier areas even if they had made the effort to do so.

But aside from all that, it's still difficult to believe that if he was a genuine local, unless he spent his entire life indoors and alone, that nobody ever would recognise him - friends, workmates depending on his occupation, etc - especially if he was using the thoroughfares! So it works both ways there.

Cheers,
Adam.

Adam,

Yes, of course there was a risk.

JTR couldn't dictate which policemen he came across, and by their very nature some policemen would have at least stopped him. It appears, though, from the testomies of the policemen on the beat in the area, they were more concerned with finding nightwatchmen, doctors or other policemen and thee types were in the majority. Did any of the police on the beat in the area stop and search anyone?

There is a very good chance he was seen in the area. A decent chance he was recognised. But then what? There must have been completely innocent men in the vicinity, and we know that from Stride's murder, but no one came forward to identify them as being in the area. Tells a story. Probably something to do with the people of East London looking out for a lunatic or not looking/interested at all rather than some fella walking down the street as per usual.

And the vigilantes: by the time they're on the scene he's long gone, and what were they looking for? A mad man?