1891 Ripper Collector, His Collection, and Purported Victim's Shawl

[Archaic]

'Ye Old Cheshire Cheese'

Hi Robert. I suppose that's what happens when writers for obscure journals start hanging out in pubs with London newspaper editors... they are seduced and lured away. Maybe it was his entertaining little Ripper article that got Belmont noticed?

I decided to follow up on Graham's information that the pub referred to in the article as 'The Cheese' is 'The Old Cheshire Cheese' in Fleet Street. I believe I've found the pub in question. Its called 'Ye Olde Cheshire Cheese' and is located at 145 Fleet Street.

There has been a pub at this location since 1538, and the current pub was rebuilt in 1668 following the Great Fire of London.
Charles Dickens, Dr. Johnson, W.B. Yeats and Sir Arthur Conan Doyle are said to have been regulars.

The following link contains excellent photos of the pub's interior, as well as some interesting historical information regarding the famous writers who frequented it: http://blog.londonconnection.com/?p=1957

I wonder if any Casebook members have visited this pub? It sounds very cool.

Best regards,
Archaic

[Graham]

Hi Archaic,

yes, I visited once, years and years ago. It was at lunch-time, and the place was so crowded I never did get to the bar.

Anyone who's read James Boswell will recall the literary luncheons at The Cheese, and all the august gents enjoying "smoaking beef-steaks". I hope the service then was a bloody sight better than it was when I went....

Graham

[Robert]

In 1891 there were two households at 145 Fleet St - the pub people, and a retired City Police constable and wife!

In 1881 the policeman is there at 145 Fleet St (as a working constable) but the address of the pub is in Wine Office Court.

[Archaic]

Wine Office Court

Hi Graham. Sure wish Seattle had a 400 year old pub! I'd be so excited by the cool atmosphere that I wouldn't mind crummy service.
Seattle's oldest saloons only date to the 1890's and are over-run with tourists. I hope you Brits realize how lucky you are to live amidst such fascinating history!

Hi Robert. I saw the address of Ye Olde Cheshire Cheese sometimes given as "Wine Office Court, 145 Fleet Street". I thought that 'Wine Office Court' must be the narrow alley-like street that intersects with Fleet Street.

I searched around and found a webpage in the 'Londonist' blog that explains the street layout as well as the origin of the name 'Wine Office Court'. http://londonist.com/2009/01/londoni...0_wine_off.php

Cheers,
Archaic

[Robert]

Yes, it's a bit complicated but it's the same place, it's just that the address shifts slightly.

I am now waiting for Graham to make jokes about going up back passages....

[Archaic]

Back Passage

Robert, most Americans have never even heard the phrase "back passage". It sounds quite funny to us. We just say "alley".

If you look up the meaning of "back passage", I think you'll be surprised how many online dictionaries don't even mention the fact that one of its possible definitions is "an alley or a passage between buildings".


Archaic

[Graham]

Yes, it's a bit complicated but it's the same place, it's just that the address shifts slightly.

I am now waiting for Graham to make jokes about going up back passages....

Oooooooh, you are awful! But I like you....

Graham

[Robert]

Maybe I should have said 'tradesman's entrance'....

[Archaic]

"Jack-the-Rippers of the Libraries"

Hi folks.

I found another reference to Jack the Ripper in the March 15, 1893 edition of 'The Collector'. It's in the form of what I guess you'd call it an example of "journalistic hyperbole". I've seen many passing references to Jack the Ripper in LVP journals, but this one is used in such a strange context that I thought others might want to see it.

This little article was in the main section of the journal, under the New York heading, and the incidents referred to happened in New York. For those who aren't familiar with the lingo, "copper plates" refers to copper engravings, such as were used to illustrate books in the old days. They are sometimes valuable, especially the antique ones, so people cut them out of books and sell them as collectable art, usually to be framed and hung on a wall.

Moral of the story: Don't take a knife to library books.

Best regards,
Archaic

[Stephen Thomas]

Robert, most Americans have never even heard the phrase "back passage". It sounds quite funny to us. We just say "alley".

Hi Archaic

In Britain the phrase is a widely used euphemism for 'anus' An old joke has a lady going to her doctor to say she is constipated and is prescribed suppositories to put in her back passage. She goes back later to say that she did put the pills in her back passage but for all the good they did she may just as well have stuck them up her arse.

Hi Graham

There's no evidence that Dr Johnson ever set foot in the Cheshire Cheese pub.

[Graham]

Hi Stephen,

Hi Graham

There's no evidence that Dr Johnson ever set foot in the Cheshire Cheese pub

.

No definitive written evidence maybe, but as Dr Johnson lived very nearby at Gough Square, and was a 'clubbable man', I think we can take it for granted that he wined and dined at The Cheese.

Graham

[Archaic]

re: 'Cheshire Cheese' & Dr. Johnson

Hi Stephen and Graham.

I found some written reports that Dr. Johnson frequented the Cheshire Cheese. They are both from 1901.

The first one is from 'The Book of the Cheese, Being the traits and Stories of Ye Olde Cheshire Cheese' and cites an earlier 1887 report in the Saint James Gazette.

The second is from the 'Guy's Hospital Gazette'. The entire article is about the history of 'The Cheshire Cheese'.
Apparently Shakespeare frequented the previous pub on that site, which I thought was pretty cool.

Best regards,
Archaic

[Graham]

There you are, then! Thank you, Archaic!

It probably also goes unremarked that Dr Johnson had a South Staffordshire accent....

Graham

[Stephen Thomas]

Hi Stephen and Graham.

I found some written reports that Dr. Johnson frequented the Cheshire Cheese. They are both from 1901.

Neither article proves that Dr Johnson ever stepped foot in the Cheshire Cheese, as I said to Graham in the first instance.

There are many Dr Johnson scholars who would love to see reasonable evidence that he did.

[Hunter]

This is a great thread!

Thank you, Bunny, and all for contributing information that enlightens the historical context.

Even obscure publications like 'The Collector' reinforce the development of the legend that 'Jack the Ripper' had become and continues to be.