What Became Of #19 Cleveland Street? Conflicting Information

[Rob Clack]

... in October, 2007; in the company of the ever astute 'Ripper' enthusiast, Debra Arif, and the ever lovely Rob Clack.

Did I get that right?

Spot on.


Not much in the way of illustrations of number 19. Just these two that I have.





Rob

[Colin Roberts]

Parish Boundary Plate, "St. Pancras Parish, 1836": Southeastern Side of Tottenham Street, Parish of St. Pancras (Click Image, to Enlarge in flickr)


Southeastern Corner of the Intersection of Tottenham Street & Cleveland Street / Eastern Side of Cleveland Street, Parish of St. Marylebone; as seen from the Site of 19 Cleveland Street, Parish of St. Marylebone, Directly Opposite (Click Image, to Enlarge in flickr)

--- The red door marks the main entrance, to today's 22 Cleveland Street. ---

As seen from the Site of 19 Cleveland Street, Parish of St. Marylebone, Directly Opposite


Eastern Side of Cleveland Street, Parish of St. Marylebone (Click Image, to Enlarge in flickr)

There is a depiction, in Stephen Knight's Jack the Ripper: The Final Solution, of an elderly gentleman standing in front of the white door, which marks the entry to today's 21 Cleveland Street (left center). The caption reads: "Joseph Sickert pays a sad visit to the tobacconist's shop in Cleveland Street where the whole Ripper episode had its origins."


Eastern Side of Cleveland Street, Parish of St. Marylebone (Click Image, to Enlarge in flickr)

[Colin Roberts]

Thank you, gentlemen!

The work, to which Stephen is referring, Roy, was posted during the latter months of 2006.

It was, unfortunately, lost in the server crash of early 2008, and I have never bothered to re-compile it.

Within the realm of that work, I made a specific case, regarding my absolute certainty of the location of the long lost 19 Cleveland Street, Parish of St. Marylebone.

That "absolute certainty", Archaic, was based on its presence in the 1873 Ordnance Survey; its absence in the 1894 Ordnance Survey; and the manners, in which certain portions of Cleveland Street were enumerated as part of the Parish of St. Marylebone (odds, ... and evens: 2 -to- ~22(?)), whilst other portions were enumerated as part of the Parish of St. Pancras (evens: 24(?) -to- __), in the Census of England & Wales, 1881, 1891, and 1901.

Here's some other work that I posted recently, at JTRForums.com:

I took this photograph, ...


Strand Union Workhouse, Cleveland Street, Parish of St. Pancras (Click Image, to Enlarge in flickr)

... in February, 2007.

And, I took this one, ...


Strand Union Workhouse, Cleveland Street, Parish of St. Pancras (Click Image, to Enlarge in flickr)

... in October, 2007; in the company of the ever astute 'Ripper' enthusiast, Debra Arif, and the ever lovely Rob Clack.

Did I get that right?

Anyway, ...

This historic landmark, which is currently under the threat of demolition, was built c.1778; and functioned from that point in time, until 1836, as the Parish Workhouse of St. Paul Covent Garden.

The structure then served as the Strand Union Workhouse, until c.1873, when it was then designated a Poor Law Infirmary of the Central London Sick Asylum District.

Central London Sick Asylum District (Populations, in Accordance with the Census of England & Wales, 1891)

St. Pancras Poor Law Parish
- The Parish of St. Pancras: 234,379

Sub-Total: 234,379

Westminster Poor Law Union
- The Parish of St. James Westminster (aka 'St. James Piccadilly'), Liberty of the City of Westminster: 24,995
- The Parish of St. Anne Westminster (aka 'St. Anne Soho'), Liberty of the City of Westminster: 12,317

Sub-Total: 37,312

Strand Poor Law Union
- The Parish of St. Martin in the Fields, Liberty of the City of Westminster: 14,616
- The Parish of St. Paul Covent Garden, Liberty of the City of Westminster: 2,142
- The Parish of St. Clement Danes: 8,492
----- {The Parish of St. Clement Danes, Liberty of the City of Westminster: ?}
----- {The Parish of St. Clement Danes, Liberty of the Savoy: ?}
- The Liberty of the Rolls: 421
- The Precinct of the Savoy, Liberty of the Savoy: 201
- The Parish of St. Mary le Strand, Liberty of the Savoy: 1,549

Sub-Total: 27,421

St. Giles in the Fields & St. George Bloomsbury Poor Law Parish
- The Combined Parish of St. Giles in the Fields & St. George Bloomsbury: 39,782
----- {The Parish of St. Giles in the Fields: ?}
----- {The Parish of St. George Bloomsbury: ?}

Sub-Total: 39,782

Total: 338,894


Cleveland Street, Parish of St. Marylebone / Parish of St. Pancras (Click Image, to Enlarge in flickr)
Underlying Aerial Imagery: Copyright Google Earth, 2007
Overlying Plots, Labels and Color-Shadings: Copyright Colin C. Roberts, 2010

Civil Parishes

- Green Boundary: The Parish of St. Marylebone
- Red Boundary: The Parish of St. Pancras

Landmarks

- Blue: Strand Union Workhouse, Cleveland Street, Parish of St. Pancras
- Orange: Site of 19 Cleveland Street, Parish of St. Marylebone
- Yellow: Currently, 22 Cleveland Street, London Borough of Camden; Formerly, 10 Norfolk Street, Parish of St. Marylebone*, and then 20, 22, or 24 (?) Cleveland Street, Parish of St. Marylebone**

* This was, purportedly, the residence of a young Charles Dickens, during the periods 1815-1817 and 1829-1832.

** I will have to look through some notes that I made in 2006/2007, before confirming the house number that was in place, in the 1880's/1890's.

Anyone want to save the Cleveland St Workhouse, How's birthplace?

Howard was allowed to leave the workhouse, during his adolescence, upon his being granted an apprenticeship, by Messrs. Hammond and Veck, of 19 Cleveland Street, which was just down the road. This 'apprenticeship', as it were, involved doing 'odd jobs', for various Gentlemen; and his 'on-the-job training', so to speak, was provided, courtesy of a Henry Newlove.


Southeastern Corner of the Intersection of Tottenham Street & Cleveland Street, Parish of St. Marylebone (Click Image, to Enlarge in flickr)

The building on the left was situated within the Parish of St. Pancras. A boundary plate, which indicated as much, can be seen in the following two images.

The building in the center was apparently inclusive of the dwelling, in which Charles Dickens purportedly lived, during his early childhood, and again, during his late adolescence.

--- The red door marks the main entrance, to today's 22 Cleveland Street. ---


Parish Boundary: Southeastern Side of Tottenham Street, Parish of St. Pancras / Parish of St. Marylebone (Click Image, to Enlarge in flickr)

I am restricted to just five images per post, so ...

--- More to Follow ---

[Archaic]

re:The Renumbering of Cleveland Street

Hi Mike, Stephen and Roy; thanks for your replies, and also for the link to Colin's post.

I had originally believed that #19 Cleveland Street was demolished sometime between the 1890's and the early 1920's when the Middlesex Hospital was built, but if that's true it would indicate that Cleveland Street wasn't renumbered in the wake of the scandal, as multiple sources have claimed.

I wonder if the people who claim #19 and/or its immediate vicinity were renumbered after the Cleveland Street Scandal simply have their dates wrong, and the "renumbering" occurred at some point before 1889, when this section of the old Norfolk Street was renamed and renumbered as an extension of Cleveland Street?

Charles Dickens lived at #10 Norfolk Street twice; during part of his childhood, starting in 1815, and again in 1829. This would indicate that Norfolk Street was renamed and renumbered as Cleveland Street sometime between 1830 and 1889, before the Cleveland Street Scandal.

If #22 Cleveland Street was #10 Norfolk Street in Dickens' day, then #19 Cleveland Street was probably something like #7 Norfolk Street.

Maybe that's the origin of the 'renumbering' claims, in which case the numbering change occurred before the Cleveland Street Scandal and was not part of some official government 'damage control' designed to erase the notorious #19. (Even if its demolition was.)

So was the author of 'The London Compendium: Exploring the Hidden Metropolis' simply mistaken when he wrote in 2003 “A Victorian brothel at 19 Cleveland Street (since renumbered #18 and rebuilt)…” ? Because #18 still stands.

Thanks and best regards,
Archaic

[Roy Corduroy]

Thank you Archaic.

Yes Stephen, Colin's work on Cleveland Street was here -

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=61&page=241

He was Septic Blue then.

Wow, that page also has photos from JB's trip to the basement of the White Hart.
ie Klosowki's barber shop.
calling Helena W. .

[Stephen Thomas]

Hi Archaic

Colin Roberts posted some almost miraculous work on this subject with photos and maps and great detective work which answers all your questions but unfortunately I don't know where to find it.

Hope you are well

Stephen

[mklhawley]

Hi Archaic,

I'm not sure about the questions you're asking, but I also have been researching this a little: http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=5792

19 Cleveland Street male brothel definately shows the homosexual subculture occurring in London in the nineteenth century.

Sincerely,

Mike

[Archaic]

Dickens Home At #22 Cleveland Street & Cleveland Street Workhouse

Here's a better street view of #22 Cleveland Street, which was Charles Dickens' home twice; once when he was a small child and again when he was a teenager.

At the time Dickens lived here it was numbered #10 Norfolk Street. (Historians have only recently worked out the connection between the two addresses; see links below.)

Only 9 houses away is the historic Cleveland Street Workhouse. This winter it was slated for "development" and only recently saved from destruction.
(Many of us here at Casebook signed the petition to save it.)

Due to its proximity to his home, the Cleveland Street Workhouse is now widely recognized as having been Dickens' inspiration for the dreadful "Work'us" in Oliver Twist, and the Dickens connection is what has helped preservationists to save the building from destruction.

Links: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...orkhouses.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/culture/20...ved-demolition

http://www.clevelandstreetworkhouse....lk_Street.html

- Isn't it an amazing concentration of History if the Dickens home also stood across the street from the site of the Cleveland Street Scandal?

Best regards,
Archaic

[Archaic]

Hi everyone. I’ve been wondering what became of the building located at 19 Cleveland Street.

As most of you know, in 1889 it was the site of a homosexual brothel that sparked a massive public scandal known to history as ‘The Cleveland Street Scandal’. To briefly summarize: in 1889, sexual relations between males was illegal. Police discovered that telegraph boys employed by the Post office were being paid to have sex with upper-class gentlemen, and their investigation turned into a political nightmare of epic proportions when men such as Lord Arthur Somerset (Equerry to the Prince of Wales), the Earl of Euston, and even Queen Victoria’s eldest grandson Prince Albert Victor were implicated as clients of the brothel. The government attempted to squelch the leaks and rumors, and even today it is not known for certain if Prince Eddy was really a client. Chief Inspector Frederick Abberline was involved in the investigation.

(For those of you who want to learn more about the Cleveland Street Scandal, here are some links: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_Street_scandal
http://www.casebook.org/about_the_ca...reet%20Scandal )

In the aftermath of the scandal, the address of 19 Cleveland Street became so notorious that the building was reportedly:
a.) renumbered in an effort to disguise its identity
b.) torn down
c.) both.
But when I looked into the question I came up with a number of conflicting reports, and I’m not sure which of these stories, if any, is accurate.

1. This news article from 2000 claims that the building at 19 Cleveland Street still "secretly" existed at that time, but had been renumbered and divided up into flats.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/property/...nd-Street.html
Quotes from the above article written by Mathew Gwyther: “If you wander up and down Cleveland Street in the fashionable Fitzrovia area of London, you will look in vain for Number 19. Officially, it no longer exists. This is because the house was once the venue for one of the most notorious sleaze stories in late-Victorian England and was quietly removed from the Land Register.”… “The renumbered house is now divided into three flats, and Flat Two - where the bedrooms used to be - is owned by a German chef, Michael von Hruschka.” … “So his two-bedroom flat is now for sale. It is fairly small, the kitchen is contained in an alcove off the living room and the carpets need a clean, but the asking price for this blue plaque-free piece of history is a cool £280,000 - about double its value two years ago.”

2. I looked the address up on Google Maps, and the street view showed buildings on only one side of the street, the even-numbered side, and a massive construction site on the other side where one would presume #19 would be located if it still existed. (See attachments. The current #20 is painted white and #18 is painted black. The entire block on the uneven-numbered side has been demolished.) Even if #19 was officially renumbered and did not stand opposite the current #20 and #18, it seems unlikely that the local numbering system could have been disrupted to so large an extent that the original #19 was located far enough down the street to escape the neighborhood demolition. Does anyone know the extent of the renumbering effort?

> Note to attached photos: Charles Dickens lived in the white Georgian house at what is now #22 Cleveland St. when he was a boy. That’s the house with the attached shop-front to the left of #20 in second photo. The address then was #10 Norfolk Street. I don’t know when Norfolk St. became part of Cleveland St., or if this change had any connection to the Cleveland Street Scandal.

3. The Wikipedia article on the Cleveland Street Scandal (see above link) says this: “19 Cleveland Street is presumed to have been demolished when the Middlesex Hospital was expanded in the 1920s. The hospital once occupied an entire block on the western side of the southern section of the street. The former Middlesex Hospital Annexe and Outpatient Department survives on the eastern side of the street. However one report has alleged that Cleveland Street was renumbered, with number 19 being removed from the Land Registry, but that the house survives, divided into three flats, under another number. The street was certainly renumbered (and was originally called Norfolk Street), but this suggestion seems unlikely.”

The Middlesex Hospital was torn down in 2008. I have heard that #19 was torn down in either the 1890’s or in the 1920’s to make way for the hospital, but does that mean the street was not renumbered to hide the address? In 1889 did it stand opposite the current #18 and #20?

4. Then I found this mention, which brought me back to my original Google Maps search: “A Victorian brothel at 19 Cleveland Street (since renumbered #18 and rebuilt)…” From 'The London Compendium: Exploring the Hidden Metropolis' by Ed Glinert, 2003.

I’m not particularly familiar with the London address system, but I’ve never heard of a city causing its odd-and-even-numbered street addresses to swap sides.

> So what’s the truth? Was the original #19 Cleveland Street renumbered to the opposite side of the street as #18? Is that the same #18 that exists today as shown on Google Maps?
Does “renumbered #18 and rebuilt” mean that it was completely demolished and rebuilt, or that it was merely renovated?
Was it demolished at some point between the 1890’s and the 1920’s, or more recently? Was the original #19 given some other street number, and does it still stand?

Thanks in advance for your help.
Best regards, Archaic