Was Jack or (were Jack’s) schizophrenic?

[Wickerman]

Thank you, Jon.

I don't think a poor person working or living in that area would have tried a wealthy disguise,...

Hello Mary.
I don't think so either, they barely had two pennies to rub together. So anyone suggesting that a poor person might suddenly decide to buy a tux and go on a murder spree is completely out of touch with reality.
I would be inclined to believe that this is not what John Douglas meant.

Douglas must be referring to someone who had means, had a job, like maybe a clerk, was used to being decently dressed, but made an extra effort to step-it-up in his appearance whenever he felt like it.
So Douglas's Ripper was perhaps familiar with the East end but did not actually live among the lowest of the low.

There is always the possibility that this killer suffered from a multiple personality disorder..
Quote:
"A person suffering from Multiple Personality Disorder undergoes change in personality in just a few seconds. The patient then acts as a completely different person than he/she is in reality, the patient imitates characteristic and behavioral traits, name, history etc. of the person he/she thinks he/she is. People suffering from Multiple Personality Disorder sometimes undergo change in personality where they have alters of different genders, sexual orientations, ages, or nationalities.

The symptoms of this disorder are:
Patients suffering from Multiple Personality Disorder loose memory in the form of major chunks. They do not remember things happened in their lives over an extended period of time or sometimes they forget what had happened with them between particular periods of time. For example, people forget everything about their childhood or sometimes they forget about whatever happened during a time period say some 3-4 year of time. When a person alters and a different personality dominates them, they do not remember what they did after they become normal."

http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/9-24-2004-59666.asp

I know this is drifting a little from Schizophrenia, but we might need to look for some mental disorder that allows the patient to be in full control of all his senses yet have no recollection after the fact.

I don't know, just offering things to ponder. The characteristics of the crimes tend to suggest the killer was perfectly sane while committing the crimes yet, the end result suggests he had to be insane.

Regards, Jon S.

[Errata]

Here is a partial list of known serial killers who were actually schizophrenic:
Rob H

Awesome. Although some of them I disagree with because of either seemingly exclusionary behavior or possible other source of delusions.

Otis Toole was a severe epileptic with a low IQ. Post-ictal delusions are not at all uncommon in people with severe epilepsy, and the low IQ could easily lead to delusional persistence. At the time he was diagnosed, we knew almost nothing about the relationship between epilepsy and schizophrenia, so I think it is possible that while delusional, he was not actually schizophrenic.

Gacy I think likely was not simply because it would bordering on an abundance of riches, so to speak. He clearly had a couple of severe personality disorders, clearly was a sadist, clearly had paraphilias. There was little evidence of any paranoid delusions, yet he enjoyed playing games and was far too organized to qualify as hebephrenic. If he was ever delusional, it was either drug related, or to a brain injury he had as a teenager.

Fish was too organized and too capable of expressing and feigning emotion.

Chikatilo I think was not, and the only times I have seen it referenced was by some layperson attached to the case who seemed to use the word "schizophrenic" to mean insanely unacceptable behavior, as opposed to the actual disease.

Kemper I think was not, but unlike most others I think that he was not the one who sought the diagnosis, but his mother did. I think that her opinion on what she perceived to be massive problems with his mental health led to the diagnosis, and only after being out of her control did it get challenged. I believe by the time he was released the diagnosis had been dropped. His mother clearly had invested quite a bit into the notion that he was dangerous, even as a small child.

There seems to be a sort of dichotomy in my own opinions on schizophrenia and serial killers. To an extent, body collectors and cannibals seem almost too emotionally involved to be schizophrenic. But Jeffrey Dahmer was clearly delusional. I think it comes down to the fact that Schizophrenia is a specific disease with specific symptoms, and not all delusions are the result of schizophrenia. Capgras Syndrome for example is a fun one. Jerusalem Syndrome is another good one.

If you ask me if JtR's killing spree could be based on delusions, I would say absolutely. If you ask me if it could be based on Schizophrenic delusions, I would say yes, but far less likely.

[Errata]

There is always the possibility that this killer suffered from a multiple personality disorder..

Regards, Jon S.

I think this is pretty unlikely. It's one of those diseases where it works on paper, but probably not in real life.

Here's my argument.

MPD sufferers can have as few as two and as many and several hundred different personalities. Many of the personalities are mission oriented it's true, but they were created to complete tasks the core personality finds frightening or stressful. For example, there is often a personality who only gets trotted out to drive. Or to cook. But it is always tasks that are necessary to the continued survival and function of the collective. There almost always a personality dedicated to defense. And typically it is one of the oldest. But there is a threat trigger necessary to bring out this personality, and while capable of violent defense, rarely capable of random violence.

The biggest problem inherent in the disease is that despite excellent resource division as far as assigning tasks to personalities, there is absolutely no guarantee that any personality will be the next up, or that the perceived self is going to reassert any time soon. So if there was a Jack the Ripper personality, there is no guaranteed way to switch him off. And even if he was switched off, there is no guarantee that the man would revert back to his perceived self. He could go through 100 personalities without the self showing up again. So it could be literally years before the self "comes to" again.

The real caveat in MPD killers is that while the perceived self rarely is aware of other personalities, and the core never is, all of the other personalities have some awareness of the others. And there is always one (or more) who knows about everyone else. And what they did. MPD is a giant and extremely complex coping mechanism, but nothing is ever truly lost or inaccessible. Someone would know that Jack was in there somewhere, and since that personality would threaten the core, the one they were all created to protect, they would either try to "kill him off", or they would tell someone. If Jack the Ripper had MPD, we would know who he was by now. One of the personalities would have ratted him out to save the core.

Although on the whole it really is a remarkable disease.

[curious]

One of the personalities would have ratted him out to save the core.

Fascinating.

But if the "others" thought the core and thus all of them would hang, would someone rat him out or would they perhap stuff him down and not allow him back out?

And therefore provide us with why the killings stopped?

curious

[Ben]

Hi all,

John Douglas later revised his opinion that the killer "dressed to impress" after speaking to other experts who suggested that the victims were more likely to be deterred by anyone who appeared conspicuously out of place. His ultimate conclusion, that the ripper was David Cohen or someone very much like him, suggests that he did not support the idea that the killer belonged to a class above his victims, or was accustomed to dressing well, or that he held down a respectable job etc.

All the best,
Ben

[Wickerman]

MPD sufferers can have as few as two and as many and several hundred different personalities............Someone would know that Jack was in there somewhere, and since that personality would threaten the core, the one they were all created to protect, they would either try to "kill him off", or they would tell someone. If Jack the Ripper had MPD, we would know who he was by now. One of the personalities would have ratted him out to save the core.

Hello Errata.
Thankyou for an interesting post.
Let me ask you then, considering numerous people were being accused of being Jack the Ripper, how would this play out in the real world?

Wouldn't this JtR personality simply be another one of the accused, and perhaps be investigated and let go like so many were?
There was never any evidence to go on, one wonders what was there to investigate. In many cases all they had to do was demonstrate a bonafide address and perhaps occupation and they were released.
So are you saying this JtR personality could not have been one of them?

Also, who would one of those 'other' personalities accuse?
In other words how would personality #2 accuse personality #3 of being Jack the Ripper?
There were so many instances of people accusing their cousins, brothers, neighbours, and even admitting themselves to being Jack the Ripper.
How would you accuse yourself?, by accusing your 'other' personality?
Isn't this what happened in some cases?
We all think they were nutcases, but maybe they had this disorder?

Many of the personalities are mission oriented it's true, but they were created to complete tasks the core personality finds frightening or stressful.

We have a handful of stories where people (men) expressed distaste at those streetwalkers, couldn't being in their presence be a trigger for stress on the part of the patient?

... there is absolutely no guarantee that any personality will be the next up, or that the perceived self is going to reassert any time soon. So if there was a Jack the Ripper personality, there is no guaranteed way to switch him off.

Correct, which means the patient cannot control it's appearance, time of day, day of week, etc, no consistency.
Is there something consistent about these crimes which argues against this?

So it could be literally years before the self "comes to" again.

But is that not just guesswork?, what I mean is, it is not like saying all MPD's stay in one of their personalities for months or years at a time, they don't.

Thankyou for making the effort to explain MPD, I appreciate you have your doubts, I am just not so sure it can be ruled out.

All the best, Jon S.

[Wickerman]

Hi all,

John Douglas later revised his opinion that the killer "dressed to impress" after speaking to other experts who suggested that the victims were more likely to be deterred by anyone who appeared conspicuously out of place.

Thats very reassuring, that so many modern experts knew that well-dressed men in Whitchapel never had any success with streetwalkers.
(where do these guy's get their education?)

Regards, Jon S.

[Ben]

Here's the relevant extract:

Jack would not look out of the ordinary. In my initial profile I suggested that the clothing he wore at the time of the assaults would not be his everyday dress, as he would want to project to unsuspecting females that he had money, so he wouldn't have to initiate contact. But experts on the era have since informed me that unlike most of the modern prostitutes that I have encountered in crime investigation, the Victorian East End prostitutes were so desperate they would have approached anyone, regardless of dress. In fact, after the rumors surfaced that Jack might have been a medical doctor, they could have been even warier of a well-dressed and decidedly out-of-place customer.

[Merry_Olde_Mary]

Here's the relevant extract:

Jack would not look out of the ordinary. In my initial profile I suggested that the clothing he wore at the time of the assaults would not be his everyday dress, as he would want to project to unsuspecting females that he had money, so he wouldn't have to initiate contact. But experts on the era have since informed me that unlike most of the modern prostitutes that I have encountered in crime investigation, the Victorian East End prostitutes were so desperate they would have approached anyone, regardless of dress. In fact, after the rumors surfaced that Jack might have been a medical doctor, they could have been even warier of a well-dressed and decidedly out-of-place customer.

Yes, that seems like a more on-target theory. I don't imagine these poor drunk women were shy about approaching any man who was out for a stroll late at night.

Also...doesn't pertain to the Ripper, but just an interesting side note.. I was reading a modern day prostitute's memoirs, and she said one of the first things she was taught by other women on the street was to be VERY suspicious of men who offered significantly more than the going rate. These are customers who really want to get you alone somewhere, now. And in one way or another, you were going to have to earn that extra money that was offered...in ways that weren't negotiated during the pickup : ( So not only might these women have been suspicious of very well-dressed men who seemed out of place, but if the Ripper offered them a great deal of money, that should have set off alarm bells, as well.

[Errata]

Fascinating.

But if the "others" thought the core and thus all of them would hang, would someone rat him out or would they perhap stuff him down and not allow him back out?

And therefore provide us with why the killings stopped?

curious

It's possible. Trudi Chase has spoken of one of her personalities being locked away. Although in that case it wasn't for violence but for being unable to cope.

The likelihood however is that the violent personality would be locked down immediately following the first overt act. So even if the personality made it to Polly Nichols, it would not have made it farther unless (and this is a big if) the personality with the whole picture, sometimes described as a puppet master or theater manager, deemed it necessary for survival. But I can't for the life of me see how this could possibly be seen as necessary.

There was a woman who had a personality specifically created to kill her abuser (her uncle). This personality was deemed necessary for survival. However the personality was given no way to accomplish it's mission. It did not have the ability to track him down, to look for him, even to ask family members about him. If she ran into him at a grocery store, that personality could kill him. But unless she randomly bumped into him, that personality was used only to store revenge fantasies. So despite the existence of a violent personality, it was hobbled to provide the others with the knowledge that the means for revenge existed, but not to place the woman in danger.

The brain is a very cool thing. I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy, but the brain is amazing.

[Wickerman]

....In fact, after the rumors surfaced that Jack might have been a medical doctor, they could have been even warier of a well-dressed and decidedly out-of-place customer.

Ah, thankyou Ben, thats sounds more like it.
"Could have been", is the same as saying "might have been", and just as equally "might not have been".
Out of at least 1200+ prostitutes who "might have been wary", we are only interested the handful (5?) who "might not have been so wary".

Once we dispense with 'absolutes' the possibilites tend to fall into place.
Some prostitutes were desperate enough, and careless enough, to be game for anyone, regardless of the warnings.
All these victims had at least one character trait in common, - desperation.

Thankyou, Jon S.

[Merry_Olde_Mary]

Some prostitutes were desperate enough, and careless enough, to be game for anyone, regardless of the warnings.
All these victims had at least one character trait in common, - desperation.

Also, at least partially desperate specifically due to alcoholism?

[Errata]

Hello Errata.
Thankyou for an interesting post.
Let me ask you then, considering numerous people were being accused of being Jack the Ripper, how would this play out in the real world?

All the best, Jon S.

Okay. Here is where it pays off to use the correct terminology, which I absolutely didn't do. Multiple Personality Disorder is no longer called that, because it created a series of false impressions about the disease, the major one being that there are multiple personalities involved. There aren't. It is now called Dissociative Identity Disorder. And it is a much more accurate name.

When I talk about cores, perceived self, puppet-master, whatever, these are not separate complete personalities. The perceived self is a mostly fully functioning personality. It is the I in team so to speak. The core is a concept. It is the person who existed and was harmed by the astonishing abuse required for this disease. The core is is considered the innocent and severely damaged origin. But it is just a concept. By seeing a core and putting it in a safe place, the victim is free to rebuild without the damage of the abuse. But the truth is that the victim is merely sequestering those memories. No other self is created.

The all knowing personality, or the controller, is also not a whole separate personality. It simply has access to all of the memories, like you or I do, but with no emotional attachment to them. Really with DID, you aren't seeing different personalities, just rigorously segmented pieces of one personality.

It's like a truly exceptional filing system. For each emotion or expectation there are certain memories that can be accessed, and certain emotions. The segment that drives clearly has access to information about driving, road etiquette, etc. It cannot access panic. And likely cannot access any information on cooking. It's why several sufferers have "personalities" who are artists. Artistic ability has to be kept separate because it requires imagination, and that can be dangerous.


It is not like a broken mirror, where every shard can act as the whole did. It is more like a broken mural, where each piece has a portion of the whole picture.

One of the most terrifying things for people with this kind of abusive background and these issues is sex. And many sufferers never manage it. But those who do, who marry and have children etc. Have a "personality" who has sex. This segment of the personality can seduce, can flirt, can crave intimacy, can have sex. No other segment can. And this becomes necessary because these behaviours are appalling and dangerous do someone who is just so damaged from abuse. People who suffer the same orgy of sexual and physical abuse who do not dissociate pass out, or throw up, or will try to kill themselves rather than exhibit these behaviors, which as far as they are concerned are inviting the abuse back. It is not a seductive personality. It is the seductive part of the personality, with the memories and emotions for other segments cut off. However the knowledge of other people having sex is rarely distressing. Unwanted sexual advances would have to be dealt with, but by a segment that can politely decline, not by killing people. Being propositioned would absolutely create panic, but the DID sufferer survives by appearing to function normally. Taking uteri is not normal.

So a Jack the Ripper personality is not a separate self. It is the same person, only with access to certain memories and certain emotions. When not Jack the Ripper, the man would be other pieces of himself, until he gets back to the perceived self which is a high functioning segment, or a mostly whole person. Other segments would have access to some of JTRs memories, or some of the emotions. If the JTR segment were relatively new, other segments would perceive something as very wrong. Any part that had access to the memories would know without a doubt what was going on. But any benign segment who comes to covered in blood or ripping into a prostitute is going to quite simply freak out, shut down, and bring up the segment that deals with nasty surprises.

Here's where it get complicated. Memories leak. Happens all the time. Usually there is a quick shuffle and everything sorts itself out, but inevitably, the perceived self becomes aware that there are memories and emotions not its own. And it starts to become aware of the other segments. Now if you don't know that your memory is not intact, or that there are emotions you do not have access to, how on earth do you process these memories and feelings? By personalizing them. You have someone elses memories. Or you process the memories as sensory input. So instead of remembering doing something, you remember seeing someone do something. Eventually it all breaks down, at which point a sufferer either chooses to "integrate", or perceive all of the separate segments as different people in their head. Multiple Personality Disorder was an accurate name in so far as that is how the sufferers perceive it. And with the brain, perception is 9/10s of the law.

A JtR "personality" would not be complete enough to deflect or deceive successfully. It would have the skill necessary to survive and do it's job. It could kill, it could mutilate, it could interact just enough to solicit, it could run and escape. A different segment would be necessary to deceive with any ability. And such a personality is a threat to the core. It is a threat to continued survival. Those memories and emotions could be walled off, effectively "killing it". But any leakage would cause massive problems. It is entirely likely that a segment or even the perceived self would be under the impression that they witnessed the crime. Or know they committed it.

The whole purpose of dissociating is to protect themselves from painful memories or emotions. It does not make sense to have a dissociated segment create more painful and frightening memories. Defeats the purpose. But even if somehow it were to happen, likely the whole construct would crumble. Certainly the unleashed anguish of a severely abused child being confronted with Jack the Rippers crimes would be life altering, if not life ending. If it were to happen, I would look for suicide or voluntary commitment.

But I will say this. People with DID do not act crazy. A little dotty, and sometimes maddeningly obtuse, but crazy does not spring to mind. Shifts are fluid and almost effortless, and unless you are carefully watching the rate at which they blink, or their posture, you would never know. Rapidly shifting fragments of personality are much less detectable, so safer, than some full person turning into a completely other person. Which is how you can tell if someone is faking.

[Wickerman]

Thankyou Errata.
I was aware of the shift to calling this D.I.D. but wasn't sure everyone would make the connection (most are still more familiar with M.P.D.).

Excellent, another informative post, and helpfull too.
Thankyou, Jon S.

[Errata]

Thankyou Errata.
I was aware of the shift to calling this D.I.D. but wasn't sure everyone would make the connection (most are still more familiar with M.P.D.).

Excellent, another informative post, and helpfull too.
Thankyou, Jon S.

Good to know a thesis paper for a degree I never completed comes in handy finally.