What are they (still) hiding

[jason_c]

My question is how does anyone find out that such files exist in the first place? Secondly, is anyone 100% sure that these files will help because it seems (excuse the simile if its bad) a bit like looking through every phone book to find a phone number of a person you dont know the name of or do I just not understand the scale of these files and the potential secrets they may hold.

I have a limited understanding of the issue and timeline of events.

I think it was an MI5 officer(Clutterbuck) who found the files. He then publically announced these files existed after he left the service. I believe these circumstances themselves would ensure the authorities would fight tooth and nail against their release.

[Phil H]

I believe these circumstances themselves would ensure the authorities would fight tooth and nail against their release.

In my experience, not necessarily - but then I have to deal with only a fairly small amount of "security"-related information.

What Clutterbuck probably did was to awake the authorities to the existence of this "archived" material and to assess whether it was "safe" to release it.

"Fighting tooth and nail" suggests a battle red in fang and claw. Of course, the reality is that we work within a framework of legal rules set out in an Act of Parliament, and subject to several levels of audit. It's a pretty civilised situation, with the balance set pretty heavily against the administrator.

Phil

[jason_c]

I believe these circumstances themselves would ensure the authorities would fight tooth and nail against their release.

In my experience, not necessarily - but then I have to deal with only a fairly small amount of "security"-related information.

What Clutterbuck probably did was to awake the authorities to the existence of this "archived" material and to assess whether it was "safe" to release it.

"Fighting tooth and nail" suggests a battle red in fang and claw. Of course, the reality is that we work within a framework of legal rules set out in an Act of Parliament, and subject to several levels of audit. It's a pretty civilised situation, with the balance set pretty heavily against the administrator.

Phil

Fair enough points Phil.

I can just imagine MI5 being extremely concerned with ex officers releasing details of any files. If Clutterbuck can do it then other ex officers will do it in the near future. Its just as likely the precedent that worrys them rather than whats in these actual files themselves. Next we'll have ex MI5 officers calling for the release of SP files they have viewed on Queen Victoria & John Brown, Profumo, etc.

Its a slippery slope that MI5 won't wish to go near.

[Chris]

Of course, Clutterbuck wrote in his thesis that he had been given permission to use these records for his research.

Judging from what Trevor Marriott has posted, this is disputed.

[Phil H]

I can just imagine MI5 being extremely concerned with ex officers releasing details of any files.

Unauthorised release of information is a disciplinary offence, NOT one that has to do with the official release through such mechanisms as FOI.

I have on my office desk an FOI mug dating from about 2005 (when FOI came into effect) which reads on one side: "Right to know NOT need to know". The cuture change from the old ways is not an easy one, and I can imagine that some go oo far just as a few will cling to old ways.

If Clutterbuck can do it then other ex officers will do it in the near future.

A couple of years ago we had a flurry of losses of information from Government, it would be a very unobservant or wilful civil servant to have avoided the instructions and warning/penalties issued at that time.

If precedent has a role in this case, I rather think it has to do with assurances given about confidentiality in the past and future willingness of people to share information if they think it might be released early. This could for instance, tie in with attempts to get communities to share information with the authorities in regard to potential terrorists.

Of course, Clutterbuck wrote in his thesis that he had been given permission to use these records for his research.

He should have, if we was wise, written confirmation of what he could and could not do, either in his original contract/instructions. If he has NOT then he is in a very dodgy position.

FOI is about the AUTHORISED release of information, as would be an academic thesis (I am occasionally asked by colleagues whether it is alright to publish certain information in a dissertation/thesis if it is drawn from work experience or draws on such material. Usually, there is no problem - but they should ask and get it cleared to be sure. Same is true for senior military and security personnel (Stella Rimmington et al) and senior administrators politicians, writing their autobiographies - they have to get them cleared.

What may have happened with Clutterbuck was that he drew attention to these records which had previously been overlooked or rather casually regarded. Thus he may have observed his authority but not quite as was intended!!

Phil

[Chris]

He should have, if we was wise, written confirmation of what he could and could not do, either in his original contract/instructions. If he has NOT then he is in a very dodgy position.
...
What may have happened with Clutterbuck was that he drew attention to these records which had previously been overlooked or rather casually regarded. Thus he may have observed his authority but not quite as was intended!!

Obviously, any number of things may have happened.

[Trevor Marriott]

May I suggest you all stop wildly speculating and guessing about Clutterbuck and
the files and what did or did not go on.

I did say in a very early post that as soon as the tribunals decison is known I
would be reporting the full facts surrounding the case from start to finish.

Take a breather enjoy life

[Phil H]

Yes Sir.

I hadn't realised that our intrepid searcher for freedom of information was so actively AGAINST freedom of speech!!

[Trevor Marriott]

Yes Sir.

I hadn't realised that our intrepid searcher for freedom of information was so actively AGAINST freedom of speech!!

Nothing wrong with free speech if you have something constructive or sensible to say. Some people just seem to talk for the sake of talking

[jason_c]

May I suggest you all stop wildly speculating and guessing about Clutterbuck and
the files and what did or did not go on.

I did say in a very early post that as soon as the tribunals decison is known I
would be reporting the full facts surrounding the case from start to finish.

Take a breather enjoy life

I look forward to these full facts being posted.

Without being allowed to wildly speculate on the events surrounding JtR we'd hardly have a messageboard worthy of the name. And you'd have about 6 posts at best, Trevor.


Good luck with the case btw.

[Trevor Marriott]

I look forward to these full facts being posted.

Without being allowed to wildly speculate on the events surrounding JtR we'd hardly have a messageboard worthy of the name. And you'd have about 6 posts at best, Trevor.


Good luck with the case btw.

I would like nothing more than to disclose the full facts at this stage however as the case has not been decided, and even when it has there could be appeals by any of the 3 parties so It is wrong to publicly disclose details of evidence which the tribunal were asked to consider are still deliberating upon.

[jason_c]

I would like nothing more than to disclose the full facts at this stage however as the case has not been decided, and even when it has there could be appeals by any of the 3 parties so It is wrong to publicly disclose details of evidence which the tribunal were asked to consider are still deliberating upon.

Fair enough. I disagree with you about everything to do with JtR but you deserve respect for what your doing.

Credit where credit is due - I hope you win the case. However I shall fully support MI5 shooting you if you win this.

[Trevor Marriott]

Only the good die young !

[chudmuskett]

Wasn't that rumage through the Broadmoor files recently supposed to unmask JTR? I just hope this new research (if allowed) gives us at least one fresh clue because lets be honest the case is pretty stagnent at the moment.

Good luck Mr Marriott

[chudmuskett]

Mr Marriott, it says here that you have solved the case:

http://www.trevormarriott.co.uk/

But here your quoted halfway down the page as saying the case will never be solved:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4042087.stm

I dont understand