What are they (still) hiding

[Trevor Marriott]

Hello Trevor. Is there any hint about the private investigation agency involved and for whom they were working?

cheers.
LC

Yes there is

[lynn cates]

dog's life

Hello Trevor. If I sit up and wag my tail, do I get a crumb? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Jeff Leahy]

The registers and the ledgers which are the subject of the current FOI case contain reference numbers and box file numbers relating to approx 30.000 Special Branch files which were all beleived to have been destroyed.

However I no that this is not the case and some files were retained.It is access to those surviving files which I am currently pursuing and may lead to a second tribunal hearing in the coming months.

Hi Trevor

So we have registers and ledgers with reference numbers?

(i assume some basic enteries? names?)

Some of which pertain to files still in existance...but not seen before?

I guess my thoughts are, do we have original files? or referneces to original files......

eg we have the Swanson home office report...but not Abberlines original statement

Do we have original info and files?

Pirate

[mariab]

Hello Trevor. Is there any hint about the private investigation agency involved and for whom they were working?
cheers.
LC

Yes there is

Mr. Marriott, does the agency's name start with a “P“ or with a “G“?
(I bet he'll want to answer this.)

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Trevor

So we have registers and ledgers with reference numbers?

(i assume some basic enteries? names?)

Some of which pertain to files still in existance...but not seen before?

I guess my thoughts are, do we have original files? or referneces to original files......

eg we have the Swanson home office report...but not Abberlines original statement

Do we have original info and files?

Pirate

The truth is at this time I cannot say exactly what they still have until such time as I get to look at them.

I think there is one which says "Kosminski is innoncent" (just joking or am i?)

There may be something or nothing on the Whitechapel murders at the end of the day but time will tell. The fact is that they did retain a considerable amount of files for that period in time. Files which they have led us to beleive were all destroyed.

If the current case against the police fails then I would imagine it will be almost impossible to succeed with this appeal to get access to these specific files.

[Chris]

If the current case against the police fails then I would imagine it will be almost impossible to succeed with this appeal to get access to these specific files.

I don't see why that should be the case, if they are relying on the argument that it's impossible to tell which names are those of informants.

From the photos we have it's clear that argument is difficult to sustain even in relation to the Chief Constable's Register. Surely in the files themselves the names will appear in context and the argument will be even more unsustainable.

[Trevor Marriott]

In the case of the current appeal the police raised specific objections to the release. i,e, informants and connected matters. These issues I felt i were able to negate by reason of the evidence I amassed and produced before the tribunal.

This new case is still in the early stages of going through the system and I dont want to publicly comment on it at this stage, save to say that the issues from all parties will be different to the current case.

[Chris]

This new case is still in the early stages of going through the system and I dont want to publicly comment on it at this stage, save to say that the issues from all parties will be different to the current case.

In that case I don't see why it should depend on the outcome of the current appeal.

[Trevor Marriott]

The answer is simple if the current case is won and the registers and ledgers are fully examined we will know excatly what files are of interest with specific reference numbers etc. That will make a stronger case for seeking their disclosure should they still exist

As it currently stands all I know is that some files from that period of time are still retained what they relate to I do not know the full answer to that.

There are a number of legal loopholes I am currently exploring.

I can understand peoples frustrations and there is no one more frustrated than me. You and everyone else has to appreciate this has taken me 3 years to get to where we are now.

So there will be no quick and easy resoloution of this new matter. If it goes the full distance it could take up to another 6 months.

[Chris]

As it currently stands all I know is that some files from that period of time are still retained what they relate to I do not know the full answer to that.

Are these the MEPO 38 files listed on the National Archives catalogue with covering dates 1880-1997, which we've discussed before?

[c.d.]

Before anyone starts weaving conspiracy theories or talking of coverups, it is necessary to understand the legal mind and the high level of paranoia to which it is subject. By way of illustration, I worked for a law firm for a number of years. Upon leaving, I asked a partner for whom I had done a lot of work and who I thought liked me if I could get a recommendation. He said no. I was quite shocked and asked why. His reply was that if he were to give me a bad recommendation, I could possibly sue for slander etc. I said ok that makes sense but why would you not give me a good recommendation? He replied that if another firm were to hire me based on my current firm's recommendation there was a possibility that I could be at the new firm one night by myself and steal money from their safe or commit a number of other wrongs. The new firm could turn around and sue my old firm saying that they hired me based upon the old firm's recommendation and therefore the old firm was liable for the damages that I had caused. He remarked that that mindset was pretty ridiculous and that it was only a remote possibility that something like that would happen. Still the possibility existed. Hence the firm's policy.

The legal profession is rife with paranoia and suspicion and that very often dictates policy and how things are handled.

c.d.

[chudmuskett]

My question is how does anyone find out that such files exist in the first place? Secondly, is anyone 100% sure that these files will help because it seems (excuse the simile if its bad) a bit like looking through every phone book to find a phone number of a person you dont know the name of or do I just not understand the scale of these files and the potential secrets they may hold.

[Phil H]

chudmuskett

...how does anyone find out that such files exist in the first place?

Under UK FOI law, a public authority (i.e. those who hold the information) has to respond to a request for information by stating whether they do or do not hold information that is relevant. (There is a "cannot confirm or deny option, where it could be sensitivie for it even to be known that such information exists - extremely rarely used).

Thus, if you want information you do not have to request specific files (though you can if you want) but can ask for "any information you hold on the Whitechapel murders2 for instance. If you don't velieve the response is comprehensive, you can appeal.

As I have said before on this and other threads, as someone dealing with FOI requests on a daily basis, I can assure you that Government departments are as helpful as possible, we do not try to evade answering or providing information (except personal information which can only be given to the relevant individual); we are not "paranoid", secretive or unhelpful. Indeed, we devote a lot of time and effort to meeting deadlines and ensuring that information is provided in a quality way.

That said there are legal, commercial and security concerns that might lead to information being withheld, but the last is very rare, in my experience. In withholding (redacting) information in a released document - which is the normal way of doing it (for instance, you release a contract but some financial information may be covered up) we are protecting the public. It would hardly be good for the taxpayer to give away information that would allow future competition for contracts to increase prices for goods, or allow commercial interests to gain an advantage in other ways. But even then, we are scrupulous in looking at the material to ensure that the risks are real.

Nevertheless, at the margins there will always be a "creative tension" between those who want information and the wider public interest. But sometimes the issues are wider - as I suspect in this case where the authorities won't give a d**n about JtR, I'm sure.

I'd like to see these documents too, they sound interesting, but I can understand why there is a reluctance to release them even now.

Phil

[Trevor Marriott]

Simply making a request under The Whitechapel Murders or Jack The Ripper may not reveal information on the topic which may be found in other police files to which reserachers may not even have considered examining. It is there where the little gems are to be found.

The success of gaining access to the retained special branch files is not totally reliant on winning the current case but it will go along way to adding much needed weight to the new case.

[mariab]

Simply making a request under The Whitechapel Murders or Jack The Ripper may not reveal information on the topic which may be found in other police files to which reserachers may not even have considered examining. It is there where the little gems are to be found.

Absolutely.