The Thames Torso Murders questions

[Wickerman]

.... If we were all honest with ourselves, we'd have to admit part of the appeal of this mystery is that there was something unique going on. Some dynamic that sets the Ripper murders apart from every crime series before and after.

Certainly it could be the case, and yet those 'unique' motives which are offered ellicite such responses like, "oh no, it couldn't be that! - these were simply Lust Murders, easily explained".

We should never rule out the Torso murders as being related in some way. Personal biase will keep many from allowing for the possibility, and there is nothing known to date to make a connection, equally there is nothing to argue against it.
If, these crimes are related, any preconceived notion of motive in the Ripper crimes goes out the window. However, options must be kept open.

Best Wishes, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

aha!

Hello Tom.

"I've never understood the willingness of so many to write off so much as mere coincidence. Perhaps this makes it easier for them to meet their need of fitting the Ripper in with the profiles of serial killers established a hundred years later. The problem is, such comparisons are never satisfying, no matter how you twist the facts. If we were all honest with ourselves, we'd have to admit part of the appeal of this mystery is that there was something unique going on. Some dynamic that sets the Ripper murders apart from every crime series before and after."

Now you're talking!

Cheers.
LC

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi All

I havent been followong this thread in great detail and I want to ask 2 questions I aplogise if it they have already been asked and answered.

Have any of the victims of these so called Torso murders been positivley identified ?

Why is everyone so certain that these torsos were the end result of murder. ?

[Rob Clack]

Have any of the victims of these so called Torso murders been positivley identified ?

Hi Trevor, The only victim positively identified was Elizabeth Jackson who's body (most of it anyway) was found in June 1889.

Why is everyone so certain that these torsos were the end result of murder. ?

I'm keeping an open mind, but I presume (and I could be wrong) that you are asking this wondering if they came from a dissecting table? Of the top of my head I think I read one of the medical reports saying that the dissections done were not the sort that would be taught or be of any use for medical purposes. I think that referred to the Whitehall Torso and specifically the arm which was very skilfully removed (seven precise cuts and the arm could be popped out). It was the sort of skill a butcher would have.

Rob

[Phil Carter]

Hello Trevor,

In the case of the Pinchin St. crime, the only name, as far as I am aware, that has had any kind of connection placed to the crime, is Lydia Hart. The World, New York, September 11, 1889 stated this as the identity of the woman, as she was a prostitute who had been missing for some days.
I am not aware the identity was ever proven.

The victims page here on Casebook says the following:-

The estimated date of death was given as September 8, 1889 (the one-year anniversary of Annie Chapman's death; a fact which did not escape James Monro's report). Donald Swanson's report added that there was an "absence of attack on genitals as in series of Whitechapel murders." The incident was eventually not chalked up as a Ripper incident.

Sir Melville Macnaghten, who worked on the Pinchin Street Murder, wrote the following in his now famous memoranda:

On 10th Sept. '89 the naked body, with arms, of a woman was found wrapped in some sacking under a Railway arch in Pinchin St: the head & legs were never found nor was the woman ever identified. She had been killed at least 24 hours before the remains, (which had seemingly been brought from a distance,) were discovered. The stomach was split up by a cut, and the head and legs had been severed in a manner identical with that of the woman whose remains were discovered in the Thames, in Battersea Park, & on the Chelsea Embankment on 4th June of the same year; and these murders had no connection whatever with the Whitechapel horrors. The Rainham mystery in 1887, & the Whitehall mystery (when portions of a woman's body were found under what is now New Scotland Yard) in 1888 were of a similar type to the Thames & Pinchin St crimes.


In the case of the The Whitehall Mystery, the same victims page has the following:-

On October 2, 1888 the headless and limbless torso of a woman was found dumped in a vault soon to become a section of the cellar of New Scotland Yard. The unidentified woman's arms were later found dumped separately in the Thames.

The Daily News of 9th October reported details Dr Bond's post mortem..

"On October 2nd, shortly before four, I was called to the new police buildings, and there shown the decomposed trunk of a woman. It was then lying in the basement and partially unwrapped. I visited the vault where it was found, and saw that the wall against which it had lain was stained black. I should imagine the parcel must have been in the vault more than three days. At the mortuary I superintended the placing of the remains in spirits. On the following morning I made an examination, assisted by Dr. Hibberd. The sixth cervical vertebra had been sawn through in removing the head from the trunk. The lower limbs and pelvis had been removed, and the four lumbar vertebrae had been sawn through by a series of long, sweeping cuts. The length of the trunk was 17 inches, and the circumference of the chest 35 ½ inches. The circumference of the waist was 28 ½ inches. The trunk was very much decomposed. I examined the skin thoroughly, but did not detect any marks of wounds. In the neighbourhood of the cut surfaces decomposition was especially advanced. The skin was light. Both arms had been removed at the shoulder joints by several incisions. The cuts had apparently been made obliquely from above downwards, and then round the arms. Disarticulation had been effected straight through the joints. Over the body were clearly-defined marks, where the strings had been tied. The body appeared to have been wrapped up in a very skilful manner. The neck had been divided by several jagged incisions at the bottom of the larynx, which had been sawn through. On opening the chest we found that the left lung was healthy, but that the right lung was firmly adherent to the chest wall of the diaphragm, showing that at some time the woman had suffered from severe pleurisy. The rib cartilages were not ossified. In connection with the heart there were indications that convinced me that the woman did not die of suffocation or drowning. The liver was normal, and the stomach contained about an ounce of partly digested food. Portions of the body were missing. Appearances of the collar-bones indicated that the woman was of mature development – undoubtedly over 24 or 25 years of age. It appeared that she was full fleshed, well nourished, with a fair skin and dark hair. The appearances went to prove that deceased had never borne, or at any rate had never suckled, a child. The date of death as far as could be judged, was from six weeks to two months before the examination. The body had not been in the water. I examined an arm that was brought to the mortuary, and I found that it accurately fitted the trunk.The hand was long and appeared to be very well shaped. Apparently it was the hand of a person not used to manual labour. All the cuts on the trunk seemed to have been made after death. There was nothing to indicate the cause of death, though as the inside of the heart was pale and free from clots, it probably arose from haemorrhage or fainting. From a series of measurements we took we came to the conclusion that the woman was about 5ft. 8in.in height".

As regards the other torso-like crime, that of Elizabeth Jackson, Debs Arif did a really fine article on this, which can be found here:-

http://www.casebook.org/victims/jackson.html

Hope this helps.

best wishes

Phil

EDIT:- Apologies to Rob, posts crossed.

[Debra A]

Hi Trevor, The only victim positively identified was Elizabeth Jackson who's body (most of it anyway) was found in June 1889.


I'm keeping an open mind, but I presume (and I could be wrong) that you are asking this wondering if they came from a dissecting table? Of the top of my head I think I read one of the medical reports saying that the dissections done were not the sort that would be taught or be of any use for medical purposes. I think that referred to the Whitehall Torso and specifically the arm which was very skilfully removed (seven precise cuts and the arm could be popped out). It was the sort of skill a butcher would have.

Rob

Hi Trevor, Rob,

Also there's the fact that with the Whitehall case, the leg and foot found a few weeks later in the same vault as the torso, was still wearing a woollen stocking. Bodies used for dissection purposes would be completely naked wouldn't they? Elizabeth Jackson's remains were also wrapped up in her own clothing, identified by family and friends.

This relates to just two of the finds though, and it has been suggested in the past that perhaps the torsos were dismembered and dumped in order for their families to avoid burial costs, or those who had used the bodies for dissection demonstration purposes, the same? If this was the case, doesn't anyone find it odd that the majority of the torso finds were females, and of a similar age group? In a scenario like this, shouldn't there be a similar amount of dismembered males or even children and elderly bodies turning up? More of the latter I would expect.

[Rob Clack]

Hi Phil,

Lydia Hart was found alive in the local Infirmary:

The New York Herald, Wednesday 11 September 1889



Mrs Cornwall is another name that came up in the newspaper.

Hi Debs,

I forgot about the leg stocking. There probably isn't much doubt that the victims were murdered, at least the 87 to 89 ones.

Rob

[lynn cates]

abortion

Hello Debs. It seems I've heard a suggestion that at least one of these was the end result of an abortion gone wrong.

Do you think there is anything in that?

Cheers.
LC

[Debra A]

Hi Lynn,
It was certainly suggested in the case of Elizabeth Jackson, who was quite advanced in pregnancy at the time of her death, and also in the Tottenham cases in 84 I believe.
The thing with Elizabeth is that no abortion was actually performed. The foetus was removed from Elizabeth's uterus through a 5 inch incision, after her death. There is still the possibility that she was looking to end her pregnancy though and something went wrong.

Hi Rob,
Yes, I agree. I think the particular cases you mention were different too, as you know.

Hi Phil, thanks for the plug!

[lynn cates]

suggestion

Hello Debs. Thanks.

"There is still the possibility that she was looking to end her pregnancy though and something went wrong."

And if so, perhaps the dismemberment was done for disposal purposes lest the attendant "physician" should get into trouble?

Cheers.
LC

[Debra A]

Perhaps, Lynn, as I've mentioned a few times.
But then Trevor has also questioned whether these were actual murders a few times now and never responded when I've brought up the points I just posted a little while back.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Debs,

I reckon he must have posted and gone off-line.. not like Trevor not to respond methinks. Thanks Rob, Debs for the explanations by the way after my post :-)

best wishes

Phil

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Rob

You are quite correct that is my line of thinking.

I see that in most of the torsos the doctors state that there looked as if some medical knowledge had been used, but went onto hedge their bets a little. They also struggled to find causes of death.

As most will know I have previoulsy quoted the Anatomy Act 1832 wherby medical personel, anatomists, doctors, students etc could take organs and in many case complete bodies for research from mortuaries.

Having said that they were supposed to bury any corpses thereafter. Now I guess that might have incurred costs so perhaps the cheapest way would to have been to wrap the remains up and dump it in the thames.

If you remeber Burke and Hare were paid to get bodies. It is quite feasable that someone was paid to bury or dispose of the remains and then decided to keep the money and then simply dumped the remains in the river.

As to the parts being found by the police building I suspect someone was perhaps playing a practical joke on the police and cause them even more embarrasment.

Why would a killer go to all the trouble of cutting up a body and moving it around taking it to the thames all risking being discovered. It would have been moer simple to just dispose of the body in much more simple ways. Besides cutting up a body is going to leave an awful lot of blood. Another reason perhaps why it didnt happen.

Well I guess people you pays you money and you takes your choice, people will beleive what they want to beleive and not always what the facts suggest.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Trevor, Rob,

Also there's the fact that with the Whitehall case, the leg and foot found a few weeks later in the same vault as the torso, was still wearing a woollen stocking. Bodies used for dissection purposes would be completely naked wouldn't they? Elizabeth Jackson's remains were also wrapped up in her own clothing, identified by family and friends.

This relates to just two of the finds though, and it has been suggested in the past that perhaps the torsos were dismembered and dumped in order for their families to avoid burial costs, or those who had used the bodies for dissection demonstration purposes, the same? If this was the case, doesn't anyone find it odd that the majority of the torso finds were females, and of a similar age group? In a scenario like this, shouldn't there be a similar amount of dismembered males or even children and elderly bodies turning up? More of the latter I would expect.

Hi Debs

Perhaps more women were dying than men.

I think you have to keep an open mind its wrong to suggest that every torso or every body part fished out of the thames was from a murder.

[Debra A]

Hello Debs,

I reckon he must have posted and gone off-line.. not like Trevor not to respond methinks. Thanks Rob, Debs for the explanations by the way after my post :-)

best wishes

Phil

Hmmm, see Trevor's latest post Phil...has he responded to any of my points?!