Queries on London/Whitechapel 1888

[Carol]

Hi redjac!
First of all, welcome to Casebook and I hope you enjoy yourself as much as I do!

One of my latest purchases is a book called 'East End 1888' by William J. Fishman. It is a very good read. The only fault I have with it is that it could do with illustrations (the only one is of a young beggar boy on the front cover). You asked in your original post as to the drinks that were most popular at the time. On page 374 of this book the author writes:-

'Among the poorest the most popular drink was three ha'pence of gin, known as blue ruin or jacky.'

Carol

[YankeeSergeant]

Dickens

Hi redjac!
First of all, welcome to Casebook and I hope you enjoy yourself as much as I do!

One of my latest purchases is a book called 'East End 1888' by William J. Fishman. It is a very good read. The only fault I have with it is that it could do with illustrations (the only one is of a young beggar boy on the front cover). You asked in your original post as to the drinks that were most popular at the time. On page 374 of this book the author writes:-

'Among the poorest the most popular drink was three ha'pence of gin, known as blue ruin or jacky.'

Carol

Redjac, welcome! The comment about Dickens struck me for two reasons. Dickens died in 1870 and in fact, much of the latest fiction was serialized in magazines like the Strand and even some newspapers as I recollect. Gin was the drink of choice because it was plentiful and quite cheap. Though 100 years had passed the Hogwarth adage about gin wasn't far off in 1888 "drunk for a half-penny dead drunk for a penny"

[PC Roadnight]

Leadenhall Street, on Watkins beat, had electric lighting.

Monty

Hi Monty,
That's interesting. It is usually accepted that the first Street Lighting by electricity was 1911 at the famous (or infamous) Electric Avenue in Brixton.

Could it be lighting on an individual building in Leadenhall Street. Do you have a reference for it to hand by any chance?

Peter

[redjac]

thanks again for all the responses - its great to feel welcomed and get some insights and opinions

Redjac:

Yes I believe most pubs stopped serving alcohol - or at least were supposed to stop serving alcohol - by around 11 PM or midnight. Which is really much the same as now, pubs are only licensed to serve alcohol until certain times....

When Kate Eddowes was released from the lock up at 1 AM on September 30, she asked her gaoler what the time was, and his response was something like "Too late for you to be getting any more to drink".

Cheers,
Adam.

interesting - i wonder if there were much in the way of after hour illegal bars back then. im sure there would be some. there wouldnt be any night clubs then lol. i was in london out drinking one night and i went to one in a basement someplace, got served whiskey in a white plastic cup and the police came in and shut the place down before id taken a sip!

i wonder if old Jack liked his booze? maybe he got tanked up before he did the murders or had a hipflask full of brandy or something. its hard to believe he was actually there out and about doing these crimes yet no one knows the truth behind it...like the JFK shooting or Roswell or the universe itself etc...no one knows...

[Adam Went]

Redjac:

No doubt there would have been illegal ale dens in the East End, the poorer class prided themselves on being able to elude and outsmart the police and would regularly work together in order to achieve it, be it ale houses, gambling, prostitution, or any other illegal vices.

Cheers,
Adam.

[PC Roadnight]

The Licensing Act of 1872 enforced a closing time of 12 midnight in towns & cities and 11pm in rural areas. It also introduced the offence of being 'drunk in public', which enabled PCs to arrest people on the streets and of course in 'Public Houses' or bars. Publicans didn't like the Act, except when they had rowdy customers who they expected police to eject or arrest, despite the fact that the landlords had sold them excess alcohol in the first place!

So called 'private clubs' were exempt from this, but were anyway largely the preserve of the better off. Our usual practice in the 60s, when called, was to wait until the mayhem inside subsided and then make arrests for drunk & disorderly, criminal damage, and whatever injuries they had inflicted on each other!

Peter

[Adam Went]

PC:

I think the procedure you're describing is pretty much the same as what takes place today, police will generally wait around outside popular night spots and will nab anyone breaking the law at that point - generally speaking they are fairly lenient as long as you're not being violent or are so drunk that you're creating a hazard for both yourself and those around you.

Of course in the crime-filled East End of 1888, any police acts that were passed were always difficult to enforce, especially with a large percentage of the community actively working to thwart the work of law enforcement...

Cheers,
Adam.

[claire]

They may have closed by midnight, but they were open again not long after--cf. Elizabeth Prater nipping out for a rum at the Bells around 5.30am on 9 Nov.

[Adam Went]

Hi Claire,

The memory is pretty vague on this one at the moment but IIRC, Mrs. Fiddymont saw her suspicious character in the bar pretty early in the morning as well...believe it was around 7 AM, before he was followed away.

The only people at pubs around here at 7 AM would be the cleaners, and even they would probably still be in bed!

Cheers,
Adam.

[claire]

I'm presuming the Ten Bells was open for the market workers, as that pub in Smithfields (?? someone correct me?) still is. When my parents had their pub, 7am meant time for my old man to count the spoils and my ma to drink the profits I'm guessing you live in a smarter area than we did

[PC Roadnight]

Hi Claire,
Yes there were different regulations for pubs serving 'specific trades', i.e. market workers and similar. But I think those regulations came in 1914 when the Licensing Acts were amended to prevent munitions and other key workers from drinking too much!

Peter

[Adam Went]

Hey Claire,

Generally speaking, pubs around here won't open for business until 10 or 11 AM - workers will be there before then doing preparation and cleaning and what not, and that's all. Probably the only time they open any earlier is on special occasions and holidays throughout the year.

But of course we must not compare Australian pubs in 2011 with East End pubs in 1888.....

Cheers,
Adam.

[Phil H]

In Covent Garden up to the time the old flower and fruit/veg market closed and became a tourist/shopping centre, the pubs were open in the early morning (say around 0500) for the benefit of the market workers.

I can vividly recall this from my younger days. It may also feature in Hitchcock's film "Frenzy" - though my memory is hazy on the latter point.

The market-related opening hours may well have been a general approach in London at the time - applying to Smithfield, Billingsgate and Spitalsfield also?

Phil