Queries on London/Whitechapel 1888

[redjac]

Hi noobie here

I have abit of a fascination with JTR but also of Victorian London - in particular the dark and narrow alleyways of this period. Imagining what they were like etc

Im currently writing a story that incorporates elements of JTR and London in that period and have done abit of research via this site, wiki, books, movies etc but wonder if anyone here can help on a few elements that I'd like to have further insight on and would really appriciate others opinions/views (hope you don’t think this is rude of me posting here asking for insights). some of the stuff may seem pretty vague and random as im firing this stuff off as it pops into my head but maybe you can help…

First off does anyone have any good links or pictures of the alleyways of this period in London (Whitechapel or other areas) or just describing it yourself if you have visited some or read about them? I’m interested in the pavement stones, walls, lighting, the dimensions of a typical alleyway (length/width) , what type of stuff youd find in them at that period - various rubbish, disguarded items? What would be on the walls (street posters? If so what would they be like?)

Another thing about that period is bookstores - were there any bookstores about (like old 2nd hand bookstores you get today) and what would they have been like? What type of books would they have sold/been popular around then - thrillers? Pulp? Sci fi? etc. hardbacks or paperbacks (were PBs even invented then? I don’t think they were) Were there even any 2nd hand bookshops then you think? Were people then that bothered about reading the latest stuff even. (id imagine they would be as no cinema, radio or tv!)

Then theres pubs (or public houses as theyd be known then) - would anyone know what time last orders would have been around that period? (that’s one thing I cant find any info on anywhere) Also the choice of drink (obviously bitter and ale and various sprits but what about lagers and beers?) was there a big binge drinking culture in that period like there is in London/UK now - masses of people filling up all the bars on a weeknight after work until the early hours being sick on the streets? And what of the Gin Houses/Palaces - were they illegal in 1888? And as for the illegal bars (for there must’ve been a few) - would they be consigned to dark and dingy basements that you could get arrested for if caught in them? And did the Ripper murders really affect the drinking in the Whitechapel area (I.e. people not hanging around much after dark - thus affecting the trade so bars etc would shut early)

Plus theres other background stuff like Electricity - I think electric street lighting was introduced in London in 1878 but what about cheery Whitechapel? Would they have had modern electrical street lighting like the more expensive areas or would it still be gas lighting? And what of shops and homes in the area?

what would Christmas would have been like in that period - was it that celebrated in places like Whitechapel with decorations etc (and what of the west end in that period? - would it be all expensively decorated out in decemeber? )

And finally theres aspects of the Ripper him(or her!) self - we all know of the liston knife and the case of medical equipment etc and how that might’ve been used but what other stuff might the ripper been carrying? Are there any theories? And do people really believe the murders ceased on 9/11? (the last of the canonical murders) or is it just so obvious the others murders that happened after were the rippers work?

Apologies if I was rambling on there, Any insights, opinions or links on any of the things I mentioned would be welcome…

[redjac]

anyone ?

[ChrisGeorge]

Hello Redjac

Here are a couple of photographs of an alleyway in Liverpool in 1907. You can see how narrow it is. Below that is a view of the back of 25 Aldgate High Street in 1869 which shows an entryway wide enough to take a cart (vide the alleyway leading into Dutfield's Yard off Berner Street where Elizabeth Stride was murdered).







Such alleyways might have any type of garbage in them, rotting vegetables, dead rats or cats, paper, lumps of coal, whatever.

To answer another of your queries, there certainly were paperback type books in the late nineteenth century. They may not though have been smaller size paperbacks that we know today, but often periodical size. There were Jewish and other bookstores in the East End.

Cheers

Chris

[redjac]

thanks for the info - really interesting!

[kensei]

Hi redjac,

On the electricity question, it's well established that Whitechapel was still lit by gas lamps that had to be hand lit by someone every evening. I've read that there were even occasional accidents resulting in huge holes blown in the ground.

By the way, you threw me when you mentioned the date of the Kelly murder English style. Americans do it the opposite way, with the month before the day, and I had never paused to realize that November the ninth rendered English style is 9-11, which is of course infamous now for a very different and even more dire reason!

kensei

[Monty]

Leadenhall Street, on Watkins beat, had electric lighting.

Monty

[redjac]

thanks for the info - yeah i was reading an article somewhere that mentioned the date of the (alleged) last murder and i thought wow 9/11! but then its all different months for US/UK

[redjac]

Hi again, would any of you know anything or have any views about the books of the time/drinking stuff?/christmas/items the ripper may have had/the murders beyond 'the five'? (see below for details from the OP)

thanks

were there any bookstores about (like old 2nd hand bookstores you get today) and what would they have been like? What type of books would they have sold/been popular around then - thrillers? Pulp? Sci fi? etc. Were there even any 2nd hand bookshops then you think? Were people then that bothered about reading the latest stuff even. (id imagine they would be as no cinema, radio or tv!)

Then theres pubs (or public houses as theyd be known then) - would anyone know what time last orders would have been around that period? (that’s one thing I cant find any info on anywhere) Also the choice of drink (obviously bitter and ale and various sprits but what about lagers and beers?) was there a big binge drinking culture in that period like there is in London/UK now - masses of people filling up all the bars on a weeknight after work until the early hours being sick on the streets? And what of the Gin Houses/Palaces - were they illegal in 1888? And as for the illegal bars (for there must’ve been a few) - would they be consigned to dark and dingy basements that you could get arrested for if caught in them? And did the Ripper murders really affect the drinking in the Whitechapel area (I.e. people not hanging around much after dark - thus affecting the trade so bars etc would shut early)

what would Christmas would have been like in that period - was it that celebrated in places like Whitechapel with decorations etc (and what of the west end in that period? - would it be all expensively decorated out in decemeber? )

And finally theres aspects of the Ripper him(or her!) self - we all know of the liston knife and the case of medical equipment etc and how that might’ve been used but what other stuff might the ripper been carrying? Are there any theories? And do people really believe the murders ceased on 9/11? (the last of the canonical murders) or is it just so obvious the others murders that happened after were the rippers work?

[Adam Went]

Hi Redjac,

Just to help out a little on a couple of your questions, most of the residents of the Whitechapel area didn't do a whole lot of reading, more than anything because many of them were not literate enough to be able to read a proper book, and if they could, they were too busy working day to day to have the time - it was quite common for workers to do 12-14 hour days, 6 days per week in that era - then after work they would go to the pubs and ale houses. Gin was always popular, and for those who could not afford beers, there are stories of "slopsmen" who would go around the various bars filling up containers with the "dregs" or left-overs in the beers of other patrons, mix them all together regardless of what type they were, and then re-sell them.

The puppet show Punch & Judy was a popular entertainment in the Victorian era, as were the theatres and music halls - Dr. Jekyll & Mr. Hyde with Richard Mansfield was playing at the Lyceum theatre during the earlier period of the Ripper murders in 1888. Some even suggested it might have inspired the killer.

Christmas would not have been an over-celebrated time amongst the poor of the East End, again purely because of finances - if they were lucky, they might have had some extra meat or some pudding, specifically suet pudding, with half-pennies stuck in various parts of it for the children which they kept if they happened to get a slice of pudding with half-pennies in it.

There's actually a documentary called "Victorian Christmas" which aired a while back, in conjunction with a show called "Victorian Farm" - keep an eye out for it if you get the chance.

Cheers,
Adam.

[The Grave Maurice]

...most of the residents of the Whitechapel area didn't do a whole lot of reading, more than anything because many of them were not literate enough to be able to read....

I beginning to wonder if that statement is true. I'm currently reading Judith Flanders' The Invention of Murder (2011) and she says, at p. 116:

In Edinburgh Gaol in 1846, out of 4,513 prisoners only 317 could not read at all, while 379 could read well or very well, and presumably the rest were somewhere in between.

That was in Scotland 42 years before the WMs. In the meantime, England had introduced the Education Act of 1870. And we know, for example, that Joe Barnett and Mary Nichols could read.

It may be that more people were at least partially literate than we think.

[Adam Went]

Hey GM,

Literacy rates had certainly improved towards the end of the Victorian era as opposed to its earlier stages, but what I was getting at was that while you might have found the occasional Whitechapel worker reading a newspaper, as far as actual books goes which Redjac was asking about, I highly doubt one would find many Whitechapel residents tucking in at night to the latest release from Dickens, for instance.

I keep harping about the work of Henry Mayhew, but his works are definitely a source of information worth checking out, as they illustrate perfectly the attitudes of residents of those areas towards being literate during that time - essentially the majority of opinion, in the mid-Victorian period at least, seemed to be that reading and writing was of no use to them anyway in their street-trades, and they relied on the odd member of their group of workers or an associate who was lucky enough to have the ability to read and write to do so for them. A favourite pastime was gathering in local pubs or clubs and forming a group around such a person who would then read to them.

Cheers,
Adam.

[Roy Corduroy]

Good evening Redjac, welcome to Casebook, and good luck with your writing.

Yes there were eighteen booksellers in East London then, a small number compared to all the book houses in London proper. One was Edward George & Sons on Whitechapel Road. The trade paper said he carried "rare and scarce English books."




The area of the directory is circled below. You see the train station. Mr. Abrahams, landlord of the the East London pub, also leased the Pavillion Theater across the street.




And there is the headquarters of the Volunteer Rifles.

[redjac]

once again thanks for the responses. very insightful and appriciated. one other thing - does anyone know what time last orders/kicking out time was in the pubs of WC or london? i imagine around 12am might be right for 1888 but cant find any info to back it up.

i suppose people who wanted to drink after hours would head to hidden basement illegal bars/gin houses that opened after closing time for the normal bars where stuff like absinthe was available...

[Adam Went]

Redjac:

Yes I believe most pubs stopped serving alcohol - or at least were supposed to stop serving alcohol - by around 11 PM or midnight. Which is really much the same as now, pubs are only licensed to serve alcohol until certain times....

When Kate Eddowes was released from the lock up at 1 AM on September 30, she asked her gaoler what the time was, and his response was something like "Too late for you to be getting any more to drink".

Cheers,
Adam.

[Barnaby]

By the way, you threw me when you mentioned the date of the Kelly murder English style. Americans do it the opposite way, with the month before the day, and I had never paused to realize that November the ninth rendered English style is 9-11, which is of course infamous now for a very different and even more dire reason!
kensei

...and all this time I thought Nostradamus was predicting the September 11 attacks. Perhaps it was the MJK murder!