Mile End Vigilance Committee

[Adam Went]

Hey all,

Maria:

Of course they weren't better off, as they didn't get enough donations or a reward from the government. They might have gotten a hot (or cold) meal at The Crown before patrolling, and that's about it.

So why the reference to capitalism/capitalists? And the suggestions that have been floating around here that the members of the MEVC were just in it to make a quid? You ain't no capitalist if ya ain't makin' any money....!! That's the point that I have been trying to make.

As for Klosowski, the only American crime that he was likely responsible for (despite the assertions of other researchers and writers) was the threatening of his then wife, Lucy Baderski, before she fled back to England.

Tom:

But you still haven't named any sources. Why is it so difficult to say, as an example: "See the report in The Star, October 1, 1888. That'll back my version of events regarding Mortimer." Oh, I know why not - because The Star, along with a heap of other tabloids, backs the 12.30 - 1 version which came from Mortimer's own mouth!

I seem to recall that your response to my asking for a source last time was along the lines of "Find it yourself." Convincing argument, eh?

As for Jacob Levy, who would you prefer then, outside of Le Grand? Robert Mann? Uncle Jack?

You should know by now that I will continue to take opportunities to hassle you about this until you either provide a legitimate source, or admit that you were telling fibs in order to bolster your argument.

Tracy:

Many thanks for the support.
And yes, despite what others might say, you're on the right track with the Levy's. :-)

Cheers,
Adam.

[mariab]

Debs and Maria,
Okay, seems we're on the same wave length after all.
He was fluent in German, English, French, Danish, and no telling what else. The police even thought he was a German in 1877.

Not only we're on the same wavelength, but it looks like Le Grand and me share a few common traits (at least pertaining to multi-lingualism). Recently I've even found his photo in SY investigates somewhat “attractive“. Uh-oh, not good.

PS.: By the way I've told you this once Tom, don't know if you recall, but “Briscony“, which is a fairly uncommon name in English, could have been a bastardization of “briccone“, which is a very frequently used, internationally known Italian appellation meaning “thug“.

[Tom_Wescott]

Debs and Maria,

Okay, seems we're on the same wave length after all.

Didn't Le Grand speak German? Even if not officially, communicating in broken German is a piece of cake for a Dane.

He was fluent in German, English, French, Danish, and no telling what else. The police even thought he was a German in 1877.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

The Batty Street laundress and her bloody shirt IS the lodger story. That's my point, Debs. As we now know, there never WAS a lodger.

Obviously Debra knows it's where the Batty Street lodger saga generated, but she was simply stating the facts as of its earliest known mention in the press. (Unless we find an EVEN earlier newspaper quote, but probably not before the Ripper murders started!)

None of the reporters spoke German, as did Mrs. Kuer and the neighbors. But there was a German speaking interpreter handy for them.

Didn't Le Grand speak German? Even if not officially, communicating in broken German is a piece of cake for a Dane.

[Debra A]

The Batty Street laundress and her bloody shirt IS the lodger story. That's my point, Debs. As we now know, there never WAS a lodger. There was a man from the West Side who dropped his shirt off to be cleaned and it became bloody by accident while there. One of Mrs. Kuer's ACTUAL lodgers wrote to the papers about it. The entire story as fed to the papers by dubious individuals (ahem) was fabricated and grossly exaggerated. None of the reporters spoke German, as did Mrs. Kuer and the neighbors. But there was a German speaking interpreter handy for them. Oh, and Matthew Packer with his Batty Street Lodger variation.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Yes, that's what I'm pointing out . Previously we had a lodger who was downgraded to someone who left a bloody shirt to launder with Mrs Kuer. Now we have a bloody shirt left with a laundress, Le Grand stepping in and a sudden upgrade to a lodger at Batty St, supported by Packer.

[mariab]

Oh, now I get it where my silly mistake/misquote was: I should have said “the Batty Street bloody shirt“ instead of “the Batty Street lodger“. Totally silly of me, as I already knew about this planted story (from having read Examiner 2). I guess the expression “Batty Street lodger“ came out as an automatism (as it's a known Ripperological saga). Wow, I wasn't even aware of having said this! Teaches us how easily one can say something and mean something entirely other!

[Tom_Wescott]

The Batty Street laundress and her bloody shirt IS the lodger story. That's my point, Debs. As we now know, there never WAS a lodger. There was a man from the West Side who dropped his shirt off to be cleaned and it became bloody by accident while there. One of Mrs. Kuer's ACTUAL lodgers wrote to the papers about it. The entire story as fed to the papers by dubious individuals (ahem) was fabricated and grossly exaggerated. None of the reporters spoke German, as did Mrs. Kuer and the neighbors. But there was a German speaking interpreter handy for them. Oh, and Matthew Packer with his Batty Street Lodger variation.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Debra A]

I just caught this when Yank quoted it. Maria's source is Gavin Bromley's excellent essay 'Mrs. Kuer's Lodger'. In attempt to correct me she is herself mistaken. Had she read my Le Grand essay she'd know that the earliest known newspaper reference regarding the Batty Street lodger has Charles Le Grand (along with Batchelor) at the helm. It's from Oct. 9th.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Tom, this earlier 9th Oct reference, mentioning Le Grand and Batchelor, is to them investigating a Batty Street laundress and a shirt left with her, it doesn't mention a lodger, echoing the later stories which have sometimes been presumed to be downgraded from the lodger stories.

[tji]

Hi Tom

I am not sure that Adam was giving a bold statement as more to his opinion, of course I can see why you will challenge that opinion when you have a different one of your own. I have to say that my knowledge of Le grande is so...well, grand either.

If you do have any questions I have no problems answering them on the Levy thread once you have read through the information available.

Teej x

[mariab]

I understand. I think that David is writing something similar on Joseph Fleming, but as a series of short stories. If I'm not mistaken.

[YankeeSergeant]

Bluebells

A novel as in a bit of “free“ novelization based on the facts, Yankee Seargant? The best of lucks with that. I'm afraid I haven't heard of Dusty Bluebells as an old children's counting game song. (Is this American or British?). I assume that bluebells are some kind of flower?

Maria, my understanding is that it is British (though I will have to look through my references) and yes, bluebells are a type of flower. ANd basically I am mixing the facts and fictionalizing the story.

[YankeeSergeant]

music halls

To Adam:
I'd love to see the Michael Caine miniseries, but I wished I could just rent it. I have far too many DVDs (and VCRs) as it is. But I'm sure I'll see it someday, either online, or while visiting someone. (I know, I'm such a cheapskate.)


Lusk AKA the frontman of the WVC. Call it “capitalism“ or “human nature“, but sooner or later, most human ventures end up being also about money. Not all, but most. (Hey, Ripperology is most certainly an exception to this rule, which is good!)




Essentially Claire and Adam are saying the same thing, and I agree with them. The WVC might have started out innocently, but as soon as Le Grand got a free hand, things changed fast. As for Aarons, other that he was in it for the money and for his pub in a big way, I have (yet) no idea what his initial plans were. But after Lusk received the kidney, Aarons started behaving suspiciously, in tandem with Le Grand. (Though ONLY pertaining to the kidney, not as a collaborator in any other of Le Grand's endeavours.)


Dodgy music halls nonwithstanding, Lusk was a living saint compared to Le Grand. (At least he didn't beat any music hall dancers.) Again, Lusk's behaviour after the kidney incident was not suspicious. He seemed just genuinely worried for his safety.

He was a builder/decorator who specialized in Music halls seems to me he would have to frequent them occassionally to drum up business.

[mariab]

Maria's source is Gavin Bromley's excellent essay 'Mrs. Kuer's Lodger'. In attempt to correct me she is herself mistaken. Had she read my Le Grand essay she'd know that the earliest known newspaper reference regarding the Batty Street lodger has Charles Le Grand (along with Batchelor) at the helm. It's from Oct. 9th.

Tom, no idea who quoted me on this and how, but I've referred to this only in my post #19 (which you can check out). I was most certainly NOT correcting you, but referring to your Examiner 2 article and to Debra Arif's important find. I've recently acquired Gavin Bromley's much acclaimed article and I plan to read it very-very soon. I know he also discusses Schwartz as an addendum in his concluding part.

[mariab]

A novel as in a bit of “free“ novelization based on the facts, Yankee Seargant? The best of lucks with that. I'm afraid I haven't heard of Dusty Bluebells as an old children's counting game song. (Is this American or British?). I assume that bluebells are some kind of flower?

[Tom_Wescott]

(Actually the Batty Street Lodger was first mentioned in The Northern Eastern Gazette, but also in The Evening News.)

I just caught this when Yank quoted it. Maria's source is Gavin Bromley's excellent essay 'Mrs. Kuer's Lodger'. In attempt to correct me she is herself mistaken. Had she read my Le Grand essay she'd know that the earliest known newspaper reference regarding the Batty Street lodger has Charles Le Grand (along with Batchelor) at the helm. It's from Oct. 9th.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott