Mile End Vigilance Committee

[c.d.]

Oh, come on, C.D.! Name me 5 serial killers who changed their MO so significantly (apart from Zodiac and the Boston strangler, who didn't go as far as to change from slaying and collecting organs to poisoning). Also, this discussion would take us pretty far away from this thread's subject.

Hi Maria,

I can't do so off the top of my head but if you go back and read through other Chapman threads you will see that there have been quite a few. Really all you need is one to show that it can be done. And is there any reason why it can't be done?

c.d.

[tji]

Hi all

Maria I have replied to your comments on the Jacob Levy thread, where I think it is more appropriate than this thread which doesn't have a lot to do with him.

Tj

[mariab]

Oh, come on, C.D.! Name me 5 serial killers who changed their MO so significantly (apart from Zodiac and the Boston strangler, who didn't go as far as to change from slaying and collecting organs to poisoning). Also, this discussion would take us pretty far away from this thread's subject.

[c.d.]

Hi Maria,

Why are you assuming that Abberline made a mistake? Certainly he was aware that Chapman was a poisoner. Killers can change their M.O.

c.d.

[mariab]

Maria:
Who says that the supposed American ripper-like murders were actually committed by Jack himself? That in itself is pretty unlikely.

NOt attempting to pour gas on that fire but even the police get it wrong and while they were closer to the case I just don't see him (Chapman) ripping up whores with a knife and then going to poison.

Precisely, Yankee Seargant. Like I said yesterday, the only reason for Klosowski/Chapman to subtly change his MO from knife to poison is if he felt the London police too close for comfort. That's why I said that it would help Klosowski's candidancy if there was evidence of Ripper-like murders at the locations where Klosowski resided in the US. Get it now, Adam?

As for Levy, regardless of what the truth is behind the sexual assault, why does that make him a better or worse Ripper suspect?

The fact that he was a different Jacob Levy does not detract anything away from him as a suspect.
As to him getting incarcerated because he had syphilis, that isn't how it worked, no one would be put in an asylum just because they had syphilis.

Are you guys even serious? Apart from the mixup with the wrong Levy (of sexual assault fame and missing an arm and a leg), there is NO evidence whatsoever of any assaults or violent behaviour committed by Jacob Levy, who, by the way, was just 5.3´´(which is shorter than I and, no doubt whatsoever, much weaker). The ONLY single suspicious hint pertaining to Jacob Levy is Lyam Levy's alleged obstinate refusal to testify pertaining to his witness sighting of Eddowes (for which it should be noted that the physical description of the man seen with Eddowes does NOT match Jacob Levy AT ALL). I'd be willing to go so far as to consider that Jacob Levy's incarceration for a manic illness associated with syphilis might have led the police pen pushers/officials into mixing up Jacob Levy with Aaron Kozminski. Perhaps.

When you read my response to Tom's letter, you'll note the sheer amount of sources I have listed to back up my claims. Tom hasn't named one. And still hasn't. I rest my case...for now.

I recall you article in Rip 113 and Tom's Letter to the editor in Rip 114, but I haven't yet managed to read your response to Tom in Rip 115, Adam. I'll try re-reading the entire “series“ late tonight, but can't promise, as I'm very busy with completing a long article on deadline. By the way, there was one detail or two in Tom's LTD in Rip 114 which I found pretty trite, but I'd like to re-read all of this again, as it's been a while and I don't recall the exact details.

To Chris and Wickerman:
Since the concept of understanding and investigating serial killers was not yet existing in Victorian England, it's an understandable and very honest mistake that Inspector Abbeline (late in life) suspected Klosowski/Chapman for the Ripper, despite a prominently different MO. At any rate, much more logical and honest a mistake than naming Druitt and Kozminski as a suspect.

[Chris]

Wickerman

As far as I know, no one is suggesting that Abberline suspected Klosowski at the time of the Ripper murders. What I was disputing was your assertion that "any suggestion as to their opinions tends to leave the reader with the impression that these officials thought Klosowski was the Ripper at the time." The reader would get that impression only if he hadn't been paying attention to what was said immediately beforehand.

And regarding Abberline, what I was disputing was your assertion that his "opinion on the connection is at best third-hand." My point is that Abberline was interviewed by the Pall Mall Gazette in 1903, and his opinion was published then. Nothing to do with Hargrave Adam, and nothing "third-hand" about it.

[Wickerman]

It doesn't in its original context, where Sugden had just laid out the evidence in full. Nor does it here, as Adam specified "in later years."

On my assertion that Abberline 'did not' suspect Klosowski was the Ripper "at the time", we read:

"...Abberline himself implied in his Pall Mall Gazette interview that he did not suspect Chapman of the Ripper crimes until the Solicitor-General's opening address at the Central Criminal Court on 16 March 1903"

1903 is not "at the time", not contemporary opinion, which is and was my point.

Of course it isn't. He was interviewed by the Pall Mall Gazette about it in 1903.

H. L. Adam's source was 'at best' third-hand, he did not speak with Abberline, Adam's did not hear, "You've got Jack the Ripper at last', from Abberline (first-hand), but from Godley, who's opinion is second hand, therefore Adam's opinion to us is third-hand.

Regards, Jon S.

[Chris]

As the above noted police officials were on duty during the Whitechapel Murders', any suggestion as to their opinions tends to leave the reader with the impression that these officials thought Klosowski was the Ripper at the time, which is clearly not the case.

It doesn't in its original context, where Sugden had just laid out the evidence in full. Nor does it here, as Adam specified "in later years."

Even Abberline's opinion on the connection is at best third-hand.

Of course it isn't. He was interviewed by the Pall Mall Gazette about it in 1903.

[Wickerman]

"A coterie of top detectives -Abberline, Godley and Neil-thus developed the strong conviction that Severin Klosowski, the man hanged at Wandsworth as George Chapman, was also Jack the Ripper."

The Complete History of Jack the Ripper by Philip Sugden (page 455).

c.d.

As the above noted police officials were on duty during the Whitechapel Murders', any suggestion as to their opinions tends to leave the reader with the impression that these officials thought Klosowski was the Ripper at the time, which is clearly not the case.

Even Abberline's opinion on the connection is at best third-hand. From what I recall it was H. L. Adam who wrote in 1930, giving the impression his source was Godley, who is suggested to have heard Abberline make the connection back in 1903.

Old men romancing about how near they were to catching him, if only......

[tji]

Absolutely. And it's inexcusable to see a name and to uncritically assume it's the same person, without cross-referencing with other details such as age, physical description, newspaper reports.

One thing I can NEVER be accused of is not checking my sources Maria. Not once did we ever state unequivocally that the Jacob Levy accused of sexual assault was 'our' Jacob Levy.
The sexual assault case was never a factor in the fact of Jacob being a Jtr suspect, it was just a bonus find. The fact that he was a different Jacob Levy does not detract anything away from him as a suspect.


As to him getting incarcerated because he had syphilis, that isn't how it worked, no one would be put in an asylum just because they had syphilis.

Tj

[c.d.]

"A coterie of top detectives -Abberline, Godley and Neil-thus developed the strong conviction that Severin Klosowski, the man hanged at Wandsworth as George Chapman, was also Jack the Ripper."

The Complete History of Jack the Ripper by Philip Sugden (page 455).

c.d.

[YankeeSergeant]

not pouring gas but...

Hi Adam:

In terms of a case to be made against George Chapman, you say, "and, perhaps most importantly, [he] had 3 top police officers name him as their preferred suspect in later years, including Inspector Abberline. If that doesn't make him a worthy candidate then you'll never be convinced of anybody."

If I might ask, Abberline and who else? Are you including Godley? Did Godley ever express a view... we know Abberline apparently said to his former sergeant "You've got Jack the Ripper at last" but what was Godley's own personal view?

And who was the third officer?

Thanks in advance for answering.

Chris

NOt attempting to pour gas on that fire but even the police get it wrong and while they were closer to the case I just don't see him (Chapman) ripping up whores with a knife and then going to poison.

[ChrisGeorge]

Hi Adam:

In terms of a case to be made against George Chapman, you say, "and, perhaps most importantly, [he] had 3 top police officers name him as their preferred suspect in later years, including Inspector Abberline. If that doesn't make him a worthy candidate then you'll never be convinced of anybody."

If I might ask, Abberline and who else? Are you including Godley? Did Godley ever express a view... we know Abberline apparently said to his former sergeant "You've got Jack the Ripper at last" but what was Godley's own personal view?

And who was the third officer?

Thanks in advance for answering.

Chris

[Adam Went]

Maria:

Who says that the supposed American ripper-like murders were actually committed by Jack himself? That in itself is pretty unlikely.

I always point towards the fact that he's known to have murdered at least three women, threatened to kill Lucy Baderski with a knife, matches some of the witness descriptions, lived right within walking vicinity of every murder site, and, perhaps most importantly, had 3 top police officers name him as their preferred suspect in later years, including Inspector Abberline. If that doesn't make him a worthy candidate then you'll never be convinced of anybody.

As for Levy, regardless of what the truth is behind the sexual assault, why does that make him a better or worse Ripper suspect? There's NO evidence that ANY of the Ripper victims had been sexually assaulted prior, during or after their murders....so i'm not sure how valid that actually is?

When you read my response to Tom's letter, you'll note the sheer amount of sources I have listed to back up my claims. Tom hasn't named one. And still hasn't. I rest my case...for now.

Cheers,
Adam.

[mariab]

So why the reference to capitalism/capitalists? And the suggestions that have been floating around here that the members of the MEVC were just in it to make a quid? You ain't no capitalist if ya ain't makin' any money....!! That's the point that I have been trying to make.

Hi Adam,
I've responded to this in my post #64. You might have missed it. I'm quoting myself again (which feels kinda self-indulgent.):

I said “capitalism“, not “capitalists“, as in the (very cynical) example of the (poor) street vendor who started featuring USA flags at his street stand on the next day after the Twin Towers collapsed on 9/11 in N.Y..

I know about Klosowski attacking his wife Lucy with a knife, and the fashion in which it occurred doesn't sound at all like a Ripper-like attack. The only way for me to make Klosowski a person of interest would be to present circumstantial evidence on Ripper-like murders for the time and at the location when Klosowski was in America. In that case, I would have been keen on accepting a possible MO change, due to the fact that the police was making it too hot for him to go on slaying unfortunates in Whitechapel.

As for Jacob Levy, I'm sorry, but unless real evidence of an attack by him and a more criminally related reason for incarceration than syphilis turns up, I'm not interested. I got off the wagon when it turned out that the sexual assault was committed by another Levy.

Adam, I promise you I'll look up the relevant discussion in Rip 113-115 real soon. I'm kinda curious to see who is correct here pertaining to evidence for Ms Mortimer's time.