Mile End Vigilance Committee

[mariab]

I understand. I think that David is writing something similar on Joseph Fleming, but as a series of short stories. If I'm not mistaken.

[tji]

Hi Tom

I am not sure that Adam was giving a bold statement as more to his opinion, of course I can see why you will challenge that opinion when you have a different one of your own. I have to say that my knowledge of Le grande is so...well, grand either.

If you do have any questions I have no problems answering them on the Levy thread once you have read through the information available.

Teej x

[Debra A]

I just caught this when Yank quoted it. Maria's source is Gavin Bromley's excellent essay 'Mrs. Kuer's Lodger'. In attempt to correct me she is herself mistaken. Had she read my Le Grand essay she'd know that the earliest known newspaper reference regarding the Batty Street lodger has Charles Le Grand (along with Batchelor) at the helm. It's from Oct. 9th.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Tom, this earlier 9th Oct reference, mentioning Le Grand and Batchelor, is to them investigating a Batty Street laundress and a shirt left with her, it doesn't mention a lodger, echoing the later stories which have sometimes been presumed to be downgraded from the lodger stories.

[Tom_Wescott]

The Batty Street laundress and her bloody shirt IS the lodger story. That's my point, Debs. As we now know, there never WAS a lodger. There was a man from the West Side who dropped his shirt off to be cleaned and it became bloody by accident while there. One of Mrs. Kuer's ACTUAL lodgers wrote to the papers about it. The entire story as fed to the papers by dubious individuals (ahem) was fabricated and grossly exaggerated. None of the reporters spoke German, as did Mrs. Kuer and the neighbors. But there was a German speaking interpreter handy for them. Oh, and Matthew Packer with his Batty Street Lodger variation.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

Oh, now I get it where my silly mistake/misquote was: I should have said “the Batty Street bloody shirt“ instead of “the Batty Street lodger“. Totally silly of me, as I already knew about this planted story (from having read Examiner 2). I guess the expression “Batty Street lodger“ came out as an automatism (as it's a known Ripperological saga). Wow, I wasn't even aware of having said this! Teaches us how easily one can say something and mean something entirely other!

[Debra A]

The Batty Street laundress and her bloody shirt IS the lodger story. That's my point, Debs. As we now know, there never WAS a lodger. There was a man from the West Side who dropped his shirt off to be cleaned and it became bloody by accident while there. One of Mrs. Kuer's ACTUAL lodgers wrote to the papers about it. The entire story as fed to the papers by dubious individuals (ahem) was fabricated and grossly exaggerated. None of the reporters spoke German, as did Mrs. Kuer and the neighbors. But there was a German speaking interpreter handy for them. Oh, and Matthew Packer with his Batty Street Lodger variation.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Yes, that's what I'm pointing out . Previously we had a lodger who was downgraded to someone who left a bloody shirt to launder with Mrs Kuer. Now we have a bloody shirt left with a laundress, Le Grand stepping in and a sudden upgrade to a lodger at Batty St, supported by Packer.

[mariab]

The Batty Street laundress and her bloody shirt IS the lodger story. That's my point, Debs. As we now know, there never WAS a lodger.

Obviously Debra knows it's where the Batty Street lodger saga generated, but she was simply stating the facts as of its earliest known mention in the press. (Unless we find an EVEN earlier newspaper quote, but probably not before the Ripper murders started!)

None of the reporters spoke German, as did Mrs. Kuer and the neighbors. But there was a German speaking interpreter handy for them.

Didn't Le Grand speak German? Even if not officially, communicating in broken German is a piece of cake for a Dane.

[Tom_Wescott]

Debs and Maria,

Okay, seems we're on the same wave length after all.

Didn't Le Grand speak German? Even if not officially, communicating in broken German is a piece of cake for a Dane.

He was fluent in German, English, French, Danish, and no telling what else. The police even thought he was a German in 1877.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

Debs and Maria,
Okay, seems we're on the same wave length after all.
He was fluent in German, English, French, Danish, and no telling what else. The police even thought he was a German in 1877.

Not only we're on the same wavelength, but it looks like Le Grand and me share a few common traits (at least pertaining to multi-lingualism). Recently I've even found his photo in SY investigates somewhat “attractive“. Uh-oh, not good.

PS.: By the way I've told you this once Tom, don't know if you recall, but “Briscony“, which is a fairly uncommon name in English, could have been a bastardization of “briccone“, which is a very frequently used, internationally known Italian appellation meaning “thug“.

[Adam Went]

Hey all,

Maria:

Of course they weren't better off, as they didn't get enough donations or a reward from the government. They might have gotten a hot (or cold) meal at The Crown before patrolling, and that's about it.

So why the reference to capitalism/capitalists? And the suggestions that have been floating around here that the members of the MEVC were just in it to make a quid? You ain't no capitalist if ya ain't makin' any money....!! That's the point that I have been trying to make.

As for Klosowski, the only American crime that he was likely responsible for (despite the assertions of other researchers and writers) was the threatening of his then wife, Lucy Baderski, before she fled back to England.

Tom:

But you still haven't named any sources. Why is it so difficult to say, as an example: "See the report in The Star, October 1, 1888. That'll back my version of events regarding Mortimer." Oh, I know why not - because The Star, along with a heap of other tabloids, backs the 12.30 - 1 version which came from Mortimer's own mouth!

I seem to recall that your response to my asking for a source last time was along the lines of "Find it yourself." Convincing argument, eh?

As for Jacob Levy, who would you prefer then, outside of Le Grand? Robert Mann? Uncle Jack?

You should know by now that I will continue to take opportunities to hassle you about this until you either provide a legitimate source, or admit that you were telling fibs in order to bolster your argument.

Tracy:

Many thanks for the support.
And yes, despite what others might say, you're on the right track with the Levy's. :-)

Cheers,
Adam.

[mariab]

So why the reference to capitalism/capitalists? And the suggestions that have been floating around here that the members of the MEVC were just in it to make a quid? You ain't no capitalist if ya ain't makin' any money....!! That's the point that I have been trying to make.

Hi Adam,
I've responded to this in my post #64. You might have missed it. I'm quoting myself again (which feels kinda self-indulgent.):

I said “capitalism“, not “capitalists“, as in the (very cynical) example of the (poor) street vendor who started featuring USA flags at his street stand on the next day after the Twin Towers collapsed on 9/11 in N.Y..

I know about Klosowski attacking his wife Lucy with a knife, and the fashion in which it occurred doesn't sound at all like a Ripper-like attack. The only way for me to make Klosowski a person of interest would be to present circumstantial evidence on Ripper-like murders for the time and at the location when Klosowski was in America. In that case, I would have been keen on accepting a possible MO change, due to the fact that the police was making it too hot for him to go on slaying unfortunates in Whitechapel.

As for Jacob Levy, I'm sorry, but unless real evidence of an attack by him and a more criminally related reason for incarceration than syphilis turns up, I'm not interested. I got off the wagon when it turned out that the sexual assault was committed by another Levy.

Adam, I promise you I'll look up the relevant discussion in Rip 113-115 real soon. I'm kinda curious to see who is correct here pertaining to evidence for Ms Mortimer's time.

[Adam Went]

Maria:

Who says that the supposed American ripper-like murders were actually committed by Jack himself? That in itself is pretty unlikely.

I always point towards the fact that he's known to have murdered at least three women, threatened to kill Lucy Baderski with a knife, matches some of the witness descriptions, lived right within walking vicinity of every murder site, and, perhaps most importantly, had 3 top police officers name him as their preferred suspect in later years, including Inspector Abberline. If that doesn't make him a worthy candidate then you'll never be convinced of anybody.

As for Levy, regardless of what the truth is behind the sexual assault, why does that make him a better or worse Ripper suspect? There's NO evidence that ANY of the Ripper victims had been sexually assaulted prior, during or after their murders....so i'm not sure how valid that actually is?

When you read my response to Tom's letter, you'll note the sheer amount of sources I have listed to back up my claims. Tom hasn't named one. And still hasn't. I rest my case...for now.

Cheers,
Adam.

[ChrisGeorge]

Hi Adam:

In terms of a case to be made against George Chapman, you say, "and, perhaps most importantly, [he] had 3 top police officers name him as their preferred suspect in later years, including Inspector Abberline. If that doesn't make him a worthy candidate then you'll never be convinced of anybody."

If I might ask, Abberline and who else? Are you including Godley? Did Godley ever express a view... we know Abberline apparently said to his former sergeant "You've got Jack the Ripper at last" but what was Godley's own personal view?

And who was the third officer?

Thanks in advance for answering.

Chris

[YankeeSergeant]

not pouring gas but...

Hi Adam:

In terms of a case to be made against George Chapman, you say, "and, perhaps most importantly, [he] had 3 top police officers name him as their preferred suspect in later years, including Inspector Abberline. If that doesn't make him a worthy candidate then you'll never be convinced of anybody."

If I might ask, Abberline and who else? Are you including Godley? Did Godley ever express a view... we know Abberline apparently said to his former sergeant "You've got Jack the Ripper at last" but what was Godley's own personal view?

And who was the third officer?

Thanks in advance for answering.

Chris

NOt attempting to pour gas on that fire but even the police get it wrong and while they were closer to the case I just don't see him (Chapman) ripping up whores with a knife and then going to poison.

[c.d.]

"A coterie of top detectives -Abberline, Godley and Neil-thus developed the strong conviction that Severin Klosowski, the man hanged at Wandsworth as George Chapman, was also Jack the Ripper."

The Complete History of Jack the Ripper by Philip Sugden (page 455).

c.d.