Ripper-Related Victorian Vocabulary

[YankeeSergeant]

knickerbockers

[QUOTE=Carol;167943]

According to my bound volume of 'Home Chat' for 1896 bicycling was very much in the vogue in late Victorian times. Most of the illustrations show women wearing skirts when bicycling, but there are a few showing women wearing 'knickerbockers'. I can imagine the latter was the origin of the words 'split-tail', Magpie and Yankee Sergeant! Mrs Knickerbocker from USA was the originator of this garment for women, of course.

I just want to share something with you all - in my 'Home Chat' for February 22 1896 under 'Living Thoughts' is the following 'thought' which I think is lovely (haven't seen it until now whilst thinking of this thread).

'The glory of love is that it delights in doing for nothing even what nobody else will do for money'.

Love
Carol

Carol, I would assume that is where the term knickers comes from. Knickerbocker is an old Dutch term used to describe the descendents of the early Dutch settlers of eastern New York State (From New York City to the Albany area). The garment apparently is the heir to bloomers made popular in the 1850s by Amelia Bloomer. The New York Knicks take their team name from the Knickerbockers. Many of the place names in New York City come directly from the Dutch Brooklyn being a corruption of the Dutch for broken land, Spuytenduvyl meaning to spite the devil and the Bowery coming from Saint Mark's on the Bouwery. Thus concludes my New York State history Lesson, now back to our originally scheduled programming

[Fleetwood Mac]

I assumed that military bearing would mean traits that have always been common with the military, well at least in England i.e. all the characteristics wrapped up in being drilled: rigid, self-controlled, polite, humourless.

[Archaic]

Knickers

The British term for ladies' undergarments, 'knickers' comes from Knickerbockers too.

Washington Irving, the author of 'Sleepy Hollow' popularized the word "Knickerbocker". The English edition of Irving's famous work 'A History of New-York From the Beginning of the World' was illustrated by George Cruikshank, and he put the character "Diedrich Knickerbocker" in short baggy pants, which became known as 'knickers'.

In the 1920's baggy knickerbocker pants known as 'plus-fours' were stylish golfing apparel for men. They were popularized by Edward, the Prince of Wales and later Duke of Windsor.

Not sure when the word morphed in England to mean "ladies' underwear". I'm guessing it was in the 20th C. There used to be a 1-piece garment called "cami-knickers"; I've seen Edwardian ones.

I like the humorous phrase my British friends use, "knickers in a twist."

>> So does "knickers" only mean "underwear" now in England, or does it also refer to the short pants?

-Oh, but then doesn't "pants" refer to "underwear" in England too?!? Now I'm really confused!


Archaic

[DVV]

I assumed that military bearing would mean traits that have always been common with the military, well at least in England i.e. all the characteristics wrapped up in being drilled: rigid, self-controlled, polite, humourless.

Sorry, but these are characteristics of a Mexican army.

[Phil Carter]

The British term for ladies' undergarments, 'knickers' comes from Knickerbockers too.

Washington Irving, the author of 'Sleepy Hollow' popularized the word "Knickerbocker". The English edition of Irving's famous work 'A History of New-York From the Beginning of the World' was illustrated by George Cruikshank, and he put the character "Diedrich Knickerbocker" in short baggy pants, which became known as 'knickers'.

In the 1920's baggy knickerbocker pants known as 'plus-fours' were stylish golfing apparel for men. They were popularized by Edward, the Prince of Wales and later Duke of Windsor.

Not sure when the word morphed in England to mean "ladies' underwear". I'm guessing it was in the 20th C. There used to be a 1-piece garment called "cami-knickers"; I've seen Edwardian ones.

I like the humorous phrase my British friends use, "knickers in a twist."

>> So does "knickers" only mean "underwear" now in England, or does it also refer to the short pants?

-Oh, but then doesn't "pants" refer to "underwear" in England too?!? Now I'm really confused!


Archaic

Hello Archaic,

Yes, in the UK, "Knickers" generally refers to ladies underwear. "Pants", is generally referred to male underwear.

However, I have heard the term "pants" referred to by females about female underwear. I am yet to hear "knickers" referred to by males to male underwear.

Hope this helps.

best wishes

Phil

[Archaic]

Thanks Phil.

I assumed that military bearing would mean traits that have always been common with the military, well at least in England i.e. all the characteristics wrapped up in being drilled: rigid, self-controlled, polite, humourless.

Sorry, but these are characteristics of a Mexican army.

David, I just pictured Santa Anna and remembered the Alamo.

Whoa, that was intense...

If I get that 'Davey Crockett' song stuck in my head now it's your fault.

A.

[Carol]

Hi everyone!
Here are some more 'Chathamese/Cockney' sayings:

'Carrying all before her' - when talking about a well-endowed woman.

'She's got a mouth on her' - someone who shouts a lot or is very nasty in their speech.

'He's got himself a nice bit of fluff' - a young man's pretty girlfriend.

'He'll cop it' - when speaking of a child misbehaving.

Love
Carol

[Carol]

[QUOTE=Archaic;168091
Not sure when the word morphed in England to mean "ladies' underwear". I'm guessing it was in the 20th C. There used to be a 1-piece garment called "cami-knickers"; I've seen Edwardian ones.

Hi everyone,
In my 1896 Home Chat the word 'knickers' is used for ladies' underwear. There are several paper patterns that one could send off for. 1896 knickers just covered the knees and each 'leg' finished with a band to which the material was gathered with a 'frill' of lace. There is a paper pattern for 'drawers' which also covered the knees but without the bands so that the 'legs' hang loose.

In the same Home Chat there are paper patterns for 'camisoles' together with separate matching 'knickers'. So I would think that cami-knickers is just a moderation used when camisoles and knickers were joined together. Cami-knickers do not seem to have been 'invented' in 1896!

Love
Carol

[Archaic]

Link To More 1880's Definitions of "Military Appearance" & Bearing

Hi Carol. The late Victorian and Edwardian-era knickers I've seen sound like what you describe but also had a very wide opening between the legs with no closure.
I remember holding up a very wide pair and joking that a woman could actually give birth while wearing them!

Here's a link to some more definitions of "Military Appearance" and "Military Bearing". I put it on the Toppy thread as it pertained to some recent posts.

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=2113&page=75

Best regards,
Archaic

[Archaic]

"Deer-Stalker and Knickers" - Punch, 1890

Wow, how is this for a weird image?

A man with a gun clad in "deer-stalker and knickers"!!

It's a stanza in a long comic song about going to a "shoot" with the "swells"- going hunting with the wealthy.
(The type of shoot where you stand and slaughter pheasants while dressed to the nines and waited on by servants, then count the day's kill and have a fabulous meal.)

I believe that's also a pretty early use of the now-indispensable word "O.K."

Cheers,
Archaic

[Archaic]

'Knickers' and 'Sloppy': 1882

Here's an 1882 article where someone wrote into a magazine asking about the meaning of "knickers", so the term must have been fairly new.

Interestingly, they also discuss the meaning of the word "sloppy". It never occurred to me that such a ubiquitous word was so new to the English language. Apparently "sloppy" originally meant "full" as in "baggy" rather than "untidy" or "messy".

Elsewhere they discussed the meaning of the word "chilled", and the answer given was that it meant "to make something cooler" and had originated as a term used by grooms!

Gosh, if one of us went back in time to 1880 would other English speakers be able to understand us??

[Archaic]

"Black Maria", "Blow", "Drury Lane Vestal"

Here are a few interesting slang terms c.1889 (definitions were copied in full):

Black Maria (English)- the van in which prisoners are conveyed to the jail or bridewell.

Blow (English), to inform. "Blow the gaff," to give away the story of a crime.
Blow (American), to brag or boast.

Drury Lane Vestals (Old English). Drury Lane, like Covent Garden, had at one time a reputation for immorality and debauchery rivalling the Haymarket and Regent Street of to-day. The neighbourhood was notorious as the resort and dwelling-place of women of the town, whether kept mistresses or common harlots. They were called Drury Lane vestals, and "the Drury Lane Ague " was a loathsome venereal disorder.

("Bridewell" is an old English word for prison.)

("Ague" is an old word often used to describe a malarial fever, which is characterized by alternating symptoms of fever, chills, and sweating.)

Best regards,
Archaic

[The Grave Maurice]

You had me at "knickers". But please keep them coming.
I know that "Black Maria" was a term used in parts of Ontario as recently as the 1970s when the police transport vans were, in fact, black.

[Archaic]

You had me at "knickers".

Hi GM.

Have you also heard the term "Black Maria" used for a fancy Victorian era horse-drawn hearse?

That's what they call the famous one in Tombstone, Arizona. (It's wonderfully gothic and creepy-looking!)

For those not familiar with the term, "Black Maria" is pronounced the way it would have been in the early 1800's, "Black Mariah".

Best regards,
Archaic

[Phil Carter]

Bridewell

("Bridewell" is an old English word for prison.)

Hello all,

Many thanks for that reminder Archaic. A "Bridewell" was originally, a for a long time, a specific type of prison.

Bridewell Palace in London, was originally a home of King Henry VIII, and only much later became a poorhouse and prison. The palace itself was built on the site of the medieval of St Bride's Inn for Henry VIII, who actually lived there between 1515–1523. It stands on the banks of the River Fleet, it was named after a nearby well dedicated to St Bride. As many of you may know, the river Fleet gives its name to the famous "Fleet Street".

30 years after Henry VIII lived there, in 1553, and after his death, his son, Edward VI presented the palace to the City of London for the housing of homeless children and for the punishment of "disorderly women".

The City took full possession in 1556 and turned the palace into both a prison, a hospital and also workrooms. The name "Bridewell" was also adopted for other similar prisons in London, including the Clerkenwell Bridewell (opened in 1615) and Tothill Fields Bridewell, which is situated in Westminster.

The prison that was formed by the City Of London Authorities, used the same name. However, and more importantly, it was later applied to the many other, similar establishments, for which an alternative name was houses of correction, though these were mainly prisons only for the poor and indigent.

There was, I believe an official difference between "Bridewells" and prisons.. but in 1865 this difference was abolished , mostly because much of the work of the old "Bridewells" was long since been taken over by the workhouses .

Similar places all over England, Ireland, and even Canada as well as in the United States also used and borrowed the name "Bridewell". Nowadays, the term itself apparently lives on in the names of a few police stations that were once attached to a "Bridewell", especially in Ireland, I believe.

I hope this is of some interest to all. More can be found here..

JOHN CANNON. "Bridewell." The Oxford Companion to British History. 2002. http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Br...Bridewell-full

best wishes

Phil