Ripper-Related Victorian Vocabulary

[ChrisGeorge]

Hello Archaic

Very interesting to hear that you are descended from Roger de Mortimer, the 1st Earl of March. A great piece of history, if a very bloody one. As far as I know none of my forebears have had their necks stretched on the gallows and have been guilty of nothing more than trying to stretch the budget in difficult times!

All the best

Chris

[Archaic]

Ancestor Executed At Tyburn

As I was learning more about Tyburn, I read about the execution there of one of my own ancestors!

Roger de Mortimer, the 1st Earl of March, became the lover of Queen Isabella and together they overthrew King Edward II. (It's not known whether Edward II was murdered; there are also indications that he was kept alive but imprisoned.) When young Edward III came into power, he had Mortimer seized and executed at Tyburn.

Roger de Mortimer was hung on November 29, 1330. He was the first nobleman to be hung at Tyburn. This occurred before the giant gallows known as "the three-legged mare" was erected. In 1330 Tyburn was called "Tyburn Tree" or "The Elms."

What's both interesting and extremely confusing about my family tree (especially for an American!) is that the families of which it are composed were first friends, relations and allies, then arch-enemies and even the murderers of one another, then they reconciled by intermarrying!
I'm descended from the marriage of Edward III's grand-daughter, Princess Philippa of Clarence, Heiress of Ulster, to Roger de Mortimer's great-grandson and heir Edmund de Mortimer, the 3rd Earl of March.
(So the grandfather of the bride put to death the great-grandfather of the groom.)

Execution of Roger de Mortimer at Tyburn: http://edwardthesecond.blogspot.com/...-mortimer.html

I'm curious if any other members know if one of their ancestors was executed at Tyburn?

Best regards,
Archaic

[Archaic]

Oliver Cromwell's body was exhumed from Westminster Abbey, and was subjected to the ritual of a posthumous execution

"Posthumous execution"- what a concept!

Thanks Ruby and Chris.
Archaic

[ChrisGeorge]

My mum says that when she worked at C&A, at Marble Arch,in the 1950s she saw the body of Oliver Cromwell, in chains, being dug up (I believe that his head wasn't with it
-it was dipped in tar and put up on a spike somewhere ? And buried in Cambridege in the '60s ?). I think that Cromwell was hung posthumeously.

Hello Ruby

Here are the goods on Oliver Cromwell's supposed posthumous execution, according to Wikipedia:

"He died aged 59 at Whitehall on Friday 3 September 1658, the anniversary of his great victories at Dunbar and Worcester. The most likely cause of Cromwell's death was septicaemia following his urinary infection. He was buried with great ceremony, with an elaborate funeral based on that of James I, at Westminster Abbey, his daughter Elizabeth also being buried there. . . ."

Following the Restoration of the monarchy under Charles II in 1660, "[on] 30 January 1661, (symbolically the 12th anniversary of the execution of Charles I), Oliver Cromwell's body was exhumed from Westminster Abbey, and was subjected to the ritual of a posthumous execution, as were the remains of Robert Blake, John Bradshaw and Henry Ireton. (The body of Cromwell's daughter was allowed to remain buried in the Abbey.) His body was hanged in chains at Tyburn. Finally, his disinterred body was thrown into a pit, while his severed head was displayed on a pole outside Westminster Hall until 1685.

"However, many people began to question whether or not the body mutilated at Tyburn was in fact that of Cromwell. These doubts arose because it was assumed that between his death in September 1658 and the exhumation of January 1661, Cromwell’s body was buried and reburied in several places in order to protect it from vengeful royalists. The stories suggest that his bodily remains are buried in London, Cambridgeshire, Northamptonshire or Yorkshire. It continues to be questioned whether the body mutilated at Tyburn was in fact that of Oliver Cromwell."

Best regards

Chris

[Rubyretro]

My mum says that when she worked at C&A, at Marble Arch,in the 1950s she saw the body of Oliver Cromwell, in chains, being dug up (I believe that his head wasn't with it
-it was dipped in tar and put up on a spike somewhere ? And buried in Cambridege in the '60s ?). I think that Cromwell was hung posthumeously.

[Archaic]

"Pensioner" = "Pimp"

Here's an interesting slang term. It reminded me of Annie Chapman's "friend" Edward Stanley, who was known as "the Pensioner".

This is from Hotten's 1872 Slang Dictionary.

"PENSIONER, a man of the most degraded morals who lives off the miserable earnings of a prostitute."

Does this not potentially alter our perceptions of Ted the Pensioner, who in the Chapman case admitted he'd never drawn a regimental pension?

Hi Dave.

That thought certainly crossed my mind, which is why I posted the alternative meanings for "pensioner". The slang term is loaded with sacrcasm, isn't it?

On the other hand there were plenty of ex-soldiers who received a small pension, and to have any type of steady income, however meager, seemed to earn one a bit of respect of the East End. Edward Stanley appears to have been quite humiliated to have to publicly confess that his story about being a 'pensioner' was a fabrication.

Here's a thread from 2009 where I expressed my personal thoughts on that issue: http://forum.casebook.org/archive/index.php/t-2574.html

To be honest, I think any man trying to earn an income as Annie's 'pimp' was a bit deluded as to his prospects. However, in other cases, particularly those involving younger and more successful prostitutes, "pensioner" really might be a euphemism to watch for.

You're welcome to raise the question in a Chapman thread if you like.

Best regards,
Archaic

[Archaic]

Oh yeah; I guess I went by Marble Arch when I was in London.

I think I was on a doubler-decker bus tour, and the guide talked about young children being hanged for having stolen a loaf of bread.

I would think the site is haunted.

Best regard,
Archaic

[Cogidubnus]

The site of the Tyburn Tree is said to be at what is now Marble Arch, at the north-east corner of Hyde Park.

Should think most London visitors have been there, or pretty close Bunny!

All the best

Dave

[Archaic]

Images of the "Three-Legged Mare", Tyburn

Hi Dave.

That's a really cool name for a pub- as long as they let their patrons out alive!

Here are two views of the huge triangular Tyburn gallows.

The second image is a famous engraving by William Hogarth titled "The Idle 'Prentice, Executed At Tyburn." (Idle Apprentices were clearly not heading toward a good end.)

The plaque marks the spot where the old gallows stood.

I'm curious if any Casebookers have visited Tyburn? (In a strictly recreational capacity, of course.)

Best regards,
Archaic

[Cogidubnus]

Three Legged Mare

Hi Bunny

And in the city of this years Ripper conference:-

http://www.visityork.org/eating/York...&venue=1500341

All the best

Dave

[Archaic]

"The Three-Legged Mare"

I saw a nice 18th century phrase today.

DANCING ON NOTHING

ie hanged.

Dave, Stephen really is a gem!

OK, I have a slang term for you guys: who knows what the 'Three Legged Mare' refers to?



It's the massive triangular gallows built at Tyburn. It was built extra-large so as many as 24 prisoners could be hanged at once, and extra-tall so more people could view the proceedings - presumably for their own moral enlightenment. The cross-pieces were 9' long, and the structure stood 18' high. Enormous crowds turned out to watch the executions. Depending upon the notoriety of the prisoner, from 10,000-100,000 people attended.

Other popular slang terms for the gallows were "Tyburn Tree" and "The Three Legged Stool".

The Terrifying Tyburn Tree: http://www.history.co.uk/explore-his...burn-tree.html

Tyburn: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyburn

Best regards,
Archaic

[Cogidubnus]

Now THAT Stephen is a corker, a cracker, a smasher, and indubitably a veritable gem!

Dave

[Stephen Thomas]

I saw a nice 18th century phrase today.

DANCING ON NOTHING

ie hanged.

[Cogidubnus]

Edward Stanley

PENSIONER, (venery). A prostitute's bully; FANCY-MAN.

Fancy-man (or bloke). A prostitute's lover, husband, or pensioner. English synonyms: applesquire, faker, bully, ponce, pensioner, Sunday-man, fancy-Joseph, squire of the body, apron-squire, petticoat pensioner, prosser, twat-faker, twatmaster, stallion, mack, bouncer, bruiser, buck.

Does this not potentially alter our perceptions of Ted the Pensioner, who in the Chapman case admitted he'd never drawn a regimental pension?

Dave

[Archaic]

'Pensioner'

Here are some further slang definitions of "pensioner". Note that "prostitute's bully" is the Victorian term for "pimp".

PENSIONER, (venery). A prostitute's bully; FANCY-MAN.

Fancy-man (or bloke). A prostitute's lover, husband, or pensioner. English synonyms: applesquire, faker, bully, ponce, pensioner, Sunday-man, fancy-Joseph, squire of the body, apron-squire, petticoat pensioner, prosser, twat-faker, twatmaster, stallion, mack, bouncer, bruiser, buck.

Fancy-piece. A prostitute.

Best regards,
Archaic