Primrose League

[mariab]

Hi Maria. The Clarke episode described in my book takes place in the 1877s, so doesn't tell us much.

And when you referred to the “horse track“, did you mean betting etc.? Tom, was Le Grand at all involved in betting at the horse races as well?

I don't think Le Grand was at all bluffing about his papers. He was ready to produce them but was not asked to. No doubt Lewis and the magistrate were not eager to have such a thing discussed.

This is also a question for Debs (when she turns up here). I'm still completely ignorant about the procedural rules in the Malborough Magistrates Courts and the Old Bailey hearings, but wouldn't the defendants have a sollicitor? Wouldn't Le Grand's sollicitor try to “subpoena“ (or whatever they called it in Victorian jargon) the evidence so insistently mentioned by his client?

[Tom_Wescott]

Maria,

I believe by that point Le Grand had fired his representatives and was representing himself. Yes, Clarke had made a specialty of uncovering race track fraud, etc. However, keep in mind that Le Grand was in prison from 1877 to 1884, and Clarke retired sometime around then, so I don't know that Clarke would have known Le Grand from the tracks. And while Le Grand was certain involved in horse track betting, I'm not sure to what extent or that he bet illegally. We just know that the money he used to bet was obtained illegally.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Debra A]

This is also a question for Debs (when she turns up here). I'm still completely ignorant about the procedural rules in the Malborough Magistrates Courts and the Old Bailey hearings, but wouldn't the defendants have a sollicitor? Wouldn't Le Grand's sollicitor try to “subpoena“ (or whatever they called it in Victorian jargon) the evidence so insistently mentioned by his client?

Yes,but Grandy sacked his solicitor halfway through his 89 Old Bailey trial like Tom says.
The magistrates court hearing was to establish if there was enough evidence to send Le Grand to trial for blackmailing Dr Morris, the fact Le Grand mentioned he knew Lewis and worked for him was bound to be something that was looked into. That is probably whyMr Frith, who was originally Le Grand's defence solicitor at the later Old Bailey trial ( a month between the two hearings, to answer your preious question) questioned George Lewis about whether he knew [if] Le Grand had been employed by Soames. Lewis denied any knowledge.
What you have to bear in mind is that all this info comes from brief trial transcripts and the papers, so the whole story is not known, like I said before, we have no idea what questions were asked exactly.

re the betting scam. The scam was that Le Grand and whoever else was involved used forged cheques (in the name of a real person) to place bets in that man's name. After one race they would cancel the rest of the bets and claim the balance of the cheque back in cash.

[mariab]

Right, I briefly forgot that Le Grand fired his attorney and represented himself (like the idiot Bundy, about a century later).
Thank you so much for all the information, Debs and Tom. Good to know that only 1 month lapsed between the Marlborough Magistrates Court and the Old Bailey hearings. I also wasn't aware that Le Grand was in prison so long, from 1877 to 1884.
By the way, starting next Wednesday I'll be looking up the criminal archives in Paris, in the hope of finding something on Le Grand (and Ostrog), supposing that Le Grand was ever arrested in Paris. I'll keep my eyes open for any “Colonels“ and for all crimes pertaining to forgery, track bets, pimping, and extortion. If anyone has any clues pertaining to Le Grand's activities and fellow criminals in Calais or elsewhere by the French “boarder“, I'd be most grateful for any information.

Quote Debra Arif:
What you have to bear in mind is that all this info comes from brief trial transcripts and the papers, so the whole story is not known, like I said before, we have no idea what questions were asked exactly.
Yes, I'm very aware of this. I hope we might end up finding more clues (in the newspapers and in the lit) to figure it out.

[lynn cates]

Q; What are you doing in England? A: Mind your own beez-uh-ness.

Hello All. So, the French had a Primrose League shadow? Hope they had an out-raj-ous occent-uh with which to taunt the English. (eg, your mother was a hamster and your father smells of elderberries.)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Mrs. Wynne

Hello All. Nice to see a familiar name. Already found 1 coroner in the league, now Wynne's woman.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Hello Lynn,
I'm still alive, I'm not partying widly in Paris, I'm “grounded“ and slavin' it on my article on deadline. Tomorrow I'm going to the Archives Nationales for spy reports, and I'll email you about any findings (particularly on Schwartz) when back.

[lynn cates]

good luck

Hello Maria. Good luck.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Mr. Wynne

Hello All. Wynne too. Nice to know he was generous.

Cheers.
LC