Primrose League

[mariab]

I don't think Le Grand ever stated he'd been employed by Lewis, only that they had met. He claimed to have been employed by Soames.

This is truly intriguing. We gotta figure it out. What my gut feeling's saying (for whatever's worth) is that if Labouchere and Lewis and Parnell suspected Pigott, Soames might have done as well, while still being anti-Parnell, but needing to protect his newspaper.

Lewis did not specify a date. Did not Pigott give evidence earlier than February?

Wikipedia says Pigott admitted before the Parnell Commission in February 1889. But it's just wiki, and I don't have another reference to look up quickly.

I need to get one as well. I doubt there's more than one or two. Amazon is for new books, for older books you should use abe.com.

Yeah, ABEbooks is great for buying older stuff. But I'll try ordering the 2 ones cited in my post #64 through inter-library loan, which doesn't cost a thing (and takes about 4-6 weeks). The Berliner Staatsbibliothek will probably feature a few books on Parnell, but no time to look now. I also bet that Lynn Cates might own a few books on Parnell, and give us the headsup. I'm not buying unless I read them first, or at least hear an opinion.

By the way, on Pigott I've only found this, which might be available in libraries in the UK, and likely to be ordered in the US:
James O'Connor: Recollections of Richard Pigott, London, 1889.

[lynn cates]

Campbell

Hello Tom and Maria. A good bit of this is discussed in Professor Campbell's book. Although I think it is disallowed on Casebook, perhaps I can scan some interesting passages and send them along--without posting?

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Hello Lynn.
Would you perhaps consider emailing me some relevant scanned pages from the Campbell book? I would endlessly appreciate it. I don't know if I'll be able to read them before late next week though, as I'm covered to my ears with work. (That's why I'm staying in on a Friday night.) If I manage to finish up with my editorial deadlines by late next week, I might be able to conclude my readings and conduct some research in Ripperology soon.
(Problem is, I feel so lazy, I might end up spending the night watching DVDs instead of working. Rotten to the core.)

PS.: I bet Tom already has the Campbell book.

[lynn cates]

yes

Hello Maria. I believe that's possible. I shall not hurry as you, like me, are pressed for time, and can't get to them for a bit.

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Lynn, that would be much appreciated. What's the name of Campbell's book? What's his first name? Thanks!

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

Thank you SO much, Lynn! You've already emailed me scanned pages from Fisher and Butterworth pertaining to the Okhrana (which I've gone through, and will again), plus I have your CIA reports pdf files about the Okhrana, which I still need to peruse. But my first priority is Tom's Berner Street Part 2 Ripper Notes article, because I'd like to read up (among else) about the OTHER Berner Street Club. I might manage to read this article tomorrow, between doing errands and meeting friends.

Quote Tom Wescott:
What's the name of Campbell's book? What's his first name?
You got this off the tip of my tongue.

[lynn cates]

Fenian Fire

Hello Tom. It's his Fenian Fire. I am thinking of part 9, "The Commission."

Do you have that one?

(His name is Christy.)

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

The Fenian fire I've heard of. I didn't even know it was the same as Campbell.

[Debra A]

I don't think Le Grand ever stated he'd been employed by Lewis, only that they had met. He claimed to have been employed by Soames.



Lewis did not specify a date. Did not Pigott give evidence earlier than February?

No?



Lewis said Le Grand and Scanlan visited him and mentioned Le Grand visited him just before Pigott gave evidence, Feb last [speaking in June 89]

[Debra A]

My take is, Grandy appeared at Malborough on charges of blackmail, GH Lewis was defending Morris so Grandy brought up the fact he had worked for Lewis as a detective on the Parnell Inquiry and said he had the proof of this.

Lewis denied this. The case went to the Old Bailey and Lewis when questioned at this trial remembered that Grandy and Scanlan had tried to get work from him, and later Grandy had come alone to get work, but Lewis's detective of choice on the Parnell Inquiry was Clarke.

Then, for whatever reason, Lewis was asked about Grandy working for Soames [maybe it was a perhaps question...could he have] and Lewis denied any knowledge.

...but what the feck do I know eh?

[mariab]

Hmm. Why doesn't Lewis' sudden, late “recall“ that Le Grand (with Scanlan) had come to him TWICE to seek work strike me as genuine?
Before reading up on the stuff, Debs, might I inquire how much time run between the (Dr. Morris) case went from the Malborough Magistrates Courts to the Old Bailey?

As for Clarke's employment by Lewis in the Parnell inquiry, since Clarke is the focus of an entire chapter in the book Tom's reading (Lewis and Lewis), maybe it'll be cool if Tom told us anything of relevance on Clarke's detective work pertaining to Parnell on Monday. Did Clarke too stalked Pigott/Labouchere/etc.?
(By the way, I really hope to have finished with my darn article by Monday, for which I can't pretend I'm terribly motivated.)

PS.: The attachment in your post #61, Debs, says that Soames' detectives had followed up Pigott to Labouchere's house. Possibly, if this was known, this is the reason why it was asked if Le Grand was the detective in question.

[mariab]

the ex-inspector hired by George Lewis to protect Dr. Morris and investigate Le Grand was a fellow named Clarke.

So Clarke was following Le Grand, who was following Labouchere, who was following Pigott, who was following Parnell. Cracks me up.

PS.: Debs, pertaining to the attachment in your post #64, since Le Grand allegedly had papers “in his pocket“ to prove that he had worked for Lewis pertaining to the Parnell commission, did they discussed these papers/evidence at all as next in that hearing?

[Tom_Wescott]

Lewis said Le Grand and Scanlan visited him and mentioned Le Grand visited him just before Pigott gave evidence, Feb last [speaking in June 89]

I'm eating crow. I read that part of my essay when I got home Friday, and indeed, Le Grand did claim to have worked for Lewis. However, it looked to me as though Le Grand had visited Lewis alone prior to February 1889, and PRIOR TO THIS Le Grand and Scanlan visited, though Le Grand just hung in the background. Lewis hired a myriad of investigators. Since Clarke's expertise was the horse track, it's hard to imagine Lewis used him as a key investigator, but who knows. He certainly wasn't the only one. Le Grand probably was hired by Soames and would have stalked Lewis' good friend, Labouchere. If Le Grand was subsequently employed in any way by Lewis, it was probably only in the capacity of getting paid for information.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

Since Clarke's expertise was the horse track, it's hard to imagine Lewis used him as a key investigator, but who knows.

The horse track as in “playing the poneys“, as in Ascot, Newmarket etc.? Does your book Lewis and Lewis say anything else of interest about Clarke, Tom?

What I'm interested to know pertaining to Debs' attachment in her post #84 is, since Le Grand claimed during the hearing that he had papers “in his pocket“ to prove that he had worked for Lewis pertaining to the Parnell commission, did the magistrates discussed these papers/evidence at all as next in the hearing?
Or was Le Grand simply bluffing?

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Maria. The Clarke episode described in my book takes place in the 1877s, so doesn't tell us much.

I don't think Le Grand was at all bluffing about his papers. He was ready to produce them but was not asked to. No doubt Lewis and the magistrate were not eager to have such a thing discussed.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott