Primrose League

[Debra A]

Maria, all I can say is it is an odd thing to mention in the 1889 trial of a man for blackmailng a doctor, unless there was some substance to it.

Here's what Soames' detectives were up to around the same time:

[mariab]

Debs,
very-very interesting. Might I inquire where this snippet you've posted comes from? From the Old Bailey? From what it says in this snippet, it kinda appears as if Joseph Soames was around, following up the Labouchere/Lewis action, but that Soames' agenda was still against Parnell. At least that's how it looks to me.
I completely agree with you that Le Grand would probably not have mentioned any of this in his 1889 trial for blackmailing the doctor unless there was some substance to his having spied Labouchere/Pigott etc.. My interpretation would be that Le Grand might have mentioned this to show the interested parties that he possessed some knowledge, for possible blackmailing purposes, in the hope of receiving a more lenient sentence and protection. What would you say?

[Tom_Wescott]

Le Grand, Labouchere, & Pigott

A few points worthy of note...at first, Lewis denied knowing Le Grand at all, until Le Grand mentioned that he had proof. Suddenly, Lewis' memory improved to having met Le Grand TWICE before. Le Grand's mention of Labouchere and Pigott specifically was not accidental, nor likely was Le Grand's showing up at Lewis' office right after Pigott gave evidence accidental. The reason I say this is that Labouchere and Lewis had been best friends for many, many years, and it was none other than Lewis who found Pigott holed up in a hotel ready to commit suicide with a gun. Therefore, if Le Grand was following Pigott and Labouchere, he would have been led right to Lewis' door many a time...which I believe was on Portland Place.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

P.S. Lewis' other really good friend was HRH.

[mariab]

Lewis denied knowing Le Grand at all, until Le Grand mentioned that he had proof. Suddenly, Lewis' memory improved to having met Le Grand TWICE before.

Tom, is this documented in the Old Bailey? (Which I'll look up soon.)

Labouchere and Lewis had been best friends for many, many years, and it was none other than Lewis who found Pigott holed up in a hotel ready to commit suicide with a gun.

Was that when Pigott shot himself in Madrid, or was there a previous incident in London? (Probably a previous incident in London.)

Lewis' other really good friend was HRH.

Who was HRH?

Can anybody recommend me some good lit on the Parnell Commission? I've found (but not consulted yet):
- T. W. Moody: “The Times“ versus Parnell and Co., 1887-90, Historical Studies (Papers read before the Irish Conference of Historians) VI, London, Routledge & Kegan Paul, 1968
- Henry Harrison: Parnell, Joseph Chamberlain and “The Times“, Belfast and Dublin, 1953
There's also Sir Robert Anderson's Parnellism and crime articles, tons of articles in the New York Times of 1889, and this debate I've located in the Hansard, mentioning “Parnellism“ and the Primrose League:
http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1887/apr/18/adjourned-debate-seventh-night

[Tom_Wescott]

Old Bailey and newspapers.

Not sure.

HRH is the Prince.

I just read Lewis & Lewis, the only biography of George Lewis (who burned his papers). It's an amazing book. Very entertaining and informative. I recommend it to anyone. It discussed the Parnell Commission. Within the book, the author recommended a book called 'Parnell', so I want to check that out myself.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

By the by, the snippet Debra Arif attached to her post #61 looks like a newspaper report about the Old Bailey proceedings.

I might buy some books on the Parnell Commission, but no more than 2. The ones I quoted in my post #64 are a bit old, but they sound solid, and I hope that they can be ordered through inter-library loan. No trace of Lewis & Lewis in any of the amazon sites, Tom (and I've checked all sites, the American one, the British one, even the German one), but first things first, I'd rather concentrate on contemporary sources. By the by, if anyone's interested in the Hansard debate I've cited in my post #64, it's fascinating and it prominently mentions the Primrose League. I wish I could go through it more carefully tonight but I can't. Work to do.

By HRH, do you mean Prince Eddy? Oh, HRH as “His Royal Highness“? Wow. That's pompous.

[Debra A]

A few points worthy of note...at first, Lewis denied knowing Le Grand at all, until Le Grand mentioned that he had proof. Suddenly, Lewis' memory improved to having met Le Grand TWICE before. Le Grand's mention of Labouchere and Pigott specifically was not accidental, nor likely was Le Grand's showing up at Lewis' office right after Pigott gave evidence accidental. The reason I say this is that Labouchere and Lewis had been best friends for many, many years, and it was none other than Lewis who found Pigott holed up in a hotel ready to commit suicide with a gun. Therefore, if Le Grand was following Pigott and Labouchere, he would have been led right to Lewis' door many a time...which I believe was on Portland Place.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

P.S. Lewis' other really good friend was HRH.

I think Le Grand first mentioned he was employed by Lewis as a detective on the Parnell inquiry at the Malborough Magistrates Court, this was then discussed again at the following Old Bailey trial, where Lewis said he had not recognised Le Grand until he metioned the incident at Malborough. Le Grand must have elaborated somewhat by the OB trial for Soames, Labouchere and Pigott to be mentioned.
Lewis claimed Le Grand showed up at his office just before Pigott gave evidence in Feb 89, in the latter stages of the inquiry.
It was Labouchere who got Pigott to confess to forging the letters sold to the Times and at Lewis's house I think.
Lewis had a house at Portland Place.

Maria the snippet is from 'Diary of the Parnell Commission (1890)
by John MacDonald' you won't find anything at the Old Bailey from the Inquiry itself. There are a lot of books and pamphlets in various places on the web though.

[Debra A]

A few Parnell and Parnell Inquiry full texts book are here, including 'Parnell' by Charles John Smith

http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=parnell%20AND%20mediatype%3Atexts

[mariab]

Lewis claimed Le Grand showed up at his office just before Pigott gave evidence in Feb 89, in the latter stages of the inquiry.

Debs, before I read up on this, did Lewis gave any details about what Le Grand reported to him that he had found out while shadowing Pigott? I'm just wondering about how the very first suspicions fell on Pigott pertaining to the alleged Parnell letters. But I've heard that from 1884 on Pigott had began to vilify his former associates (the Irish nationalists) and to sell information to their political opponents.

It was Labouchere who got Pigott to confess to forging the letters sold to the Times and at Lewis's house I think. Lewis had a house at Portland Place.

Yes, it was Labouchere who got Pigott to talk, but I wonder who else was suspecting Pigott. It appears that Lewis, Soames, and even Parnell himself already did. As for Lewis' address at Portland Place, even wikipedia says so.

Maria the snippet is from 'Diary of the Parnell Commission (1890) by John MacDonald' you won't find anything at the Old Bailey from the Inquiry itself. There are a lot of books and pamphlets in various places on the web though.

Thank you so much for clarifying, Debs. I'll most certainly come back to you about the Parnell inquiry at the Malborough Magistrates Court and the various info available on the web, probably by the end of the month.

Wow! To me it kinda feels like if we were trying to clear up Watergate – kinda. But the Parnell accusation was also pretty big a political scandal in 1889.

[Debra A]

Maria, just quickly because I'm on my way out.
To clarify; It was Le Grand's magistrates court hearing that was held at Malborough, for blackmailing Malcolm Alexander Morris. Lewis was representing Dr. Morris. The case was then sent to the Old Bailey for trial. This has nothing to do with the Parnell Inquiry. It was just that the subject of Le Grand working on the Inquiry was brought up in the Morris blackmailing case, but none of the exact details of the questions asked about Le Grand working for Soames are known. Le Grand was stated to have said he had been employed by Lewis, why the mention of Soames come up is not clear.

[mariab]

I had NO clue that Lewis was representing Dr. Morris! (I probably missed it in Examiner 2.) Thank you so much for the information, Debs.

Le Grand was stated to have said he had been employed by Lewis, why the mention of Soames come up is not clear.

Yes I know. Maybe we'll manage to figure it out.

And have a nice evening out.

[Lechmere]

Maria - the Primrose League were only mentioned as an MP from the Irish Parliamentary Party stated that if a member of the Primrose League was somehow on a jury (and as there were a lot of members of the Primrose League there would be a good chance of this happening) that heard a posible libel case against the Times, they would instinctively find the paper not guilty and thus frustrate the action and so it was futile taking that course of action. I think.

[mariab]

Yes, clearly the Primrose League members would be more than keen to defend England's most prominent conservative newspaper (AKA The Times).

Have you seen this debate in the Hansard (including paticipation of Parnell), already mentioned in my post #64?
http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1887/apr/18/adjourned-debate-seventh-night

[Tom_Wescott]

I think Le Grand first mentioned he was employed by Lewis as a detective on the Parnell inquiry at the Malborough Magistrates Court, this was then discussed again at the following Old Bailey trial, where Lewis said he had not recognised Le Grand until he metioned the incident at Malborough. Le Grand must have elaborated somewhat by the OB trial for Soames, Labouchere and Pigott to be mentioned.

I don't think Le Grand ever stated he'd been employed by Lewis, only that they had met. He claimed to have been employed by Soames.

Lewis claimed Le Grand showed up at his office just before Pigott gave evidence in Feb 89, in the latter stages of the inquiry.

Lewis did not specify a date. Did not Pigott give evidence earlier than February?

I might buy some books on the Parnell Commission, but no more than 2.

I need to get one as well. I doubt there's more than one or two. Amazon is for new books, for older books you should use abe.com.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

As an insignificant side point of interested, the ex-inspector hired by George Lewis to protect Dr. Morris and investigate Le Grand was a fellow named Clarke. He is the focus of an entire chapter in the book I'm reading, Lewis and Lewis. Apparently, Lewis saved the inspector from disgrace (and losing his pension) in the 1870's.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott