Science Stuff

[Scorpio]

What were the chances of useable fingerprints being found at 13 Millers Court in the aftermath of Kelly's murder?. Detectives searched the room thoroughly but they made no mention of " dabs " or " finger marks " in there reports . " Dabs " refer to Patent prints,fingerprints that are openly visible to the human eye, which have been caused by the transfer of foriegn materials such as ink,blood or dirt onto a surface.However,the possibility remains that Latent prints were available. Latent, which means hidden, refer to fingerprints that are not openly visible to the human eye being most associated with natural lubricants commonly found on the skin that adheres to hard,smooth surfaces when in contact. The Blackout Ripper, Gordon Cummins, was convicted with Latent print evidence which were removed from a tin opener. In the case of number13,the door latch,window pains,bedstead and table all suggest suitable surfaces for useable Latent prints to survive. Perhaps the real problem would be in identifying the prints rather than finding them,as, by all accounts,the room was filthy, and had seen various tennants passing through not to mention Kelly's possible clients and visitors.

[The Good Michael]

Fingerprinting wasn't used at that time. I'm sure there were enough policeman in the room touching things to have made them inconclusive. Of course no one had fingerprint records as well.

Mike

[Graham]

The first criminal identification via fingerprinting wasn't until 1892, and Scotland Yard's Fingerprint Department wasn't set up until 1902. Even though Conan Doyle had mentioned fingerprints in at least one Sherlock Holmes story prior to that date.

Graham

[Scorpio]

You think.The qualities of fingerprinting as a system for identification was already established, but it would take time for a accepted system of classification to be established also. Just like early DNA you would need a comparison sample taken from suspects or unwitting donors in the absense of an established database.

[The Grave Maurice]

A useful history of the subject is: Colin Beavan, Fingerprints (New York: Hyperion, 2001).

[Scorpio]

Would anyone like to comment on Patricia Cornwells Kukri theory?.
Cornwell suggests the Ghurka knife,or Kukri,as the possible weapon that inflicted the post-mortem mutilation on Mary Kelly's body. I personally believe that the Kukri size and shape made it an impratical choice for Kelly's killer,but i like the original concept though. The Kukri was a popular hand weapon for Imperial warriors on the North West frontier,doubtless figured prominently in the macho mythology of the time, and may have endeared itself to a violent fantasist and blade fetishist. Any thoughts?.
PS you may think i am talking excrement, but i offer you the example of Edmund Kemper. Eddie owned and used a Bowie knife on female students in 70's California, christening it the " Major ".

[The Good Michael]

The Kukri is of several sizes. The regiminetal kukri wasn't so big, maybe like a nowie knife. The ceremonial ones they used for the famous buffalo beheadings was huge, like an executioner's blade. There were maybe 4 differnt sized weapons used by different ranks and for different purposes. I don't think a kukri would be very graceful in surgical procedures, however, and I would say the same for all wide-bladed weapons.

Mike

[Scorpio]

The Kukri is of several sizes. The regiminetal kukri wasn't so big, maybe like a nowie knife. The ceremonial ones they used for the famous buffalo beheadings was huge, like an executioner's blade. There were maybe 4 differnt sized weapons used by different ranks and for different purposes. I don't think a kukri would be very graceful in surgical procedures, however, and I would say the same for all wide-bladed weapons.

Mike

I believe the Kukri is primarily a slashing weapon, and its curved blade generates great force but posseses little finesse. According to Stoker,Abraham Van Helsing uses one to lop vampires heads off, so its reputation in Victorian lore was formidable.

[Scorpio]

Stoker also mentions a short bladed weapon called a " Falchion ".
The only falchions i have seen depicted are enormous broadsword style weapons of Asian origin, that came to Europe via the Crusaders in the 12th century. Perhaps the Victorians had a smaller version for military useage.

[TomTomKent]

Falchion is indeed a broad bladed sword that is much axe as sword, and I think were still used at the time by some horse back units, though I have no evidence to back this up I am fairly sure I saw one in a museum once and decided "Heck yes that is going in Dungeons and dragons this weekend." (Sorry, JtR is not the only thing I am sadly obsessed by).

[Scorpio]

How quickly does a knife become blunted?. I guess it has something to do with the quality of the metal in its construction. My point is, did Jack take more than one knife to 13 Millers Court?.

[protohistorian]

It is highly variable. At this time they were making some pretty good steel. Ground down files were common blade blanks. If a knife was made of good quality steel and ground at the correct angle there would be no need for multiple knives. Dave

[Errata]

ahhh my pet topic... bladed weapons.

A kukri would have been pretty worthless for Jack the Ripper, unless it was a pet knife. All of the advantages of the curved blade become major disadvantages when standing (or crouching) over someone on the ground. Even though it is famous as a head taker, the decapitation was done by grabbing the hair and lifting the body off the ground, not with a body on the ground. It would be terribly awkward with the throat cuts, where the curve of the blade would result either in very shallow cuts on the sides of the neck, or very deep cuts with very shallow cuts across the front quarter of the neck.

A falchion is both a blade style AND a sword. It is a short sword, it also refers to the blade shape of that sword (something like a katana). Daggers that had that particular blade shape were also called falchions. As were the pole arms that had that particular blade at the end. Dagger falchions to the best of my knowledge were never any standard issue nor part of militaria. It is simply the easiest way to grind down a broken sword blade into a knife. Grind it down, put a shorter hilt on, and just about any sword becomes a knife.

We have actually lost the best steel making techniques known to man. And they were all available to your average victorian to some degree. The durability of any blade was limited solely by the skill of the wielder, and a little planning. If someone knew they were going to be bumping up against bone quite a bit, they would use a standard butchers knife. Or as we say, a knife shaped knife. Single edged, 6-9 inches long, not more than two inches wide at the handle, tapers to a point, full tang, razor sharp. Of course, if you come away after the first murder with a dull knife, and you can't figure out why, I would imagine you would start bring a spare rather than spend a lot of time experimenting to find the right knife.

[Scorpio]

A kukri,or falchion could have cut straight through bone with a little force applied, but the Ripper failed to remove Chapmans head and there is a school of thought that suggests he did try. I just like the ripe Gothic image of Kukri wielding JtR, so i suppose i have seen to many bad movies. In reality, i think a Dirk,or bayonet with a point an at least one sharpened edge was carried.
Paul

[Errata]

A kukri,or falchion could have cut straight through bone with a little force applied, but the Ripper failed to remove Chapmans head and there is a school of thought that suggests he did try. I just like the ripe Gothic image of Kukri wielding JtR, so i suppose i have seen to many bad movies. In reality, i think a Dirk,or bayonet with a point an at least one sharpened edge was carried.
Paul

Not to nitpick or anything, but nothing cuts through bone with little force applied. An axe is the easiest thing to use, and even then, a headsman took great care in trying to place the blow between vertebrae. And an axe uses a great deal of force, it merely translates the momentum of the fall into the splitting cut the axe head shape was made for. A kukri could easily cut through to the bone, but to actually take the head a person would then place the knife between vertebrae and pop them apart. Yeah I knew. Ew.

I think a dirk would be a terrible idea, but I have some deeply personal issues with them. Any knife either without a crossguard, or a blade base wider that the hilt is going to result in grevious injury. Anyone stabbing downward with a dirk, with slick hands from blood and sweat is going to sever their palm. The first time they hit resistance, bone, stays, clothing, whatever, his hand will slide down the hilt onto the blade. And I would bet a lot of money that he would have been gripping tightly enough that the resulting cut would sever tendons. That would be a career ending injury.

A bayonet is a possibility, but I would think it would be too long to make a good job of it. Modern bayonets are little more that hunting knives, but 19th century ones are thin short swords. The longer the knife, the less control. Like trying to write while holding the pencil near the eraser. Also, deep cuts tend to happen three ways. Stab and drag, chopping, and sawing. The neck cuts are almost certainly the result of a sawing or "drawing" motion. And these women were lying on the ground when their throats were cut. A long blade makes it nigh impossible to stab, chop or saw. the just isnt enough room to maneuver without continually hitting the knife on the ground, which will break even strong steel, and certainly impede long drawing strokes.

I gotta vote for a shorter blade. And a less military oriented one. A trade knife or a kitchen knife. Easier to get a hold of.