Historical Chinese Whispers

[Rubyretro]

We often hear about family 'verbal histories', and 'family traditions'.

There is a saying 'There's No Smoke Without Fire'...but is that even true ?

How many of these 'stories' have any link with the truth whatsoever ?

I know that in my Family, it was always said that Admiral Sir Thomas Hardy was an ancestor, and coming from the Dorset area and from a strong naval Family, it seemed likely. Still, a well researched family tree threw up no such link, nor, reading about Thomas Hardy does it even seem remotely possible.

Given the families (such as that of Nathan Shine) that recount some link to the Ripper story -should we even consider them?

Where do they come from ? how do they start ?

What are people's own experiences with these type of stories, and what do they think about them ?

[Simon Wood]

Hi Ruby,

Throughout the past 122 years many people have claimed some sort of real or imaginary "romantic" attachment to the Ripper murders.

As a personal experience of the allure these murders hold for some, allow me to cite the instance of a friend of mine, now dead, who had the same name as one of the witnesses in the Whitechapel murders. Otherwise successful, intelligent and level-headed, my friend spent enormous amounts of time, effort and money trying to establish a genealogical link with this witness, and was severely crestfallen to eventually discover that their similarity of names was mere coincidence.

As sophisticated and all knowing as 21st Century society likes to think itself, there persists in our collective pysche a dark place where myths and monsters roam free, and this is a big part of the reason why so many people remain unwilling to accept the possibility of a more prosaic solution to the Whitechapel murders being found.

Our choice is simple: subscribe to the myth and continue to spin our wheels just talking about it, or tear it to the ground–whoever the historical casualties might be–and discover the truth.

Regards,

Simon

[Robert]

Maybe it's true that the more rational the person, the more irrational will be the bee in his bonnet, whatever that may be. All the irrationality gets channelled into one obsession.

[Rubyretro]

Maybe it's true that the more rational the person, the more irrational will be the bee in his bonnet, whatever that may be. All the irrationality gets channelled into one obsession.

That stung !

It's not really the topic ...but I think that anyone that comes on Casebook regularly must be quite 'obsessional', and irrational really (given the subject's lack of importance to our everday lives).

I don't think that anyone who reads or Posts regularly in these forums can cast a stone.

[protohistorian]

If the subject of geo-mythology can help, it could be either way. Say group x has lived near mountain y for generations. Group x has a myth about mountain Y exploding. Roughly half the time Y will turn out to be a volcano with a known event in the not so distant past. The other half of the time Y is not a volcano and no scientific correboration is to be had regarding the behaviors of Y. Dave

[Robert]

Hi Ruby

I would not call anyone interested in JTR irrational, unless they were wedded to an obviously silly theory, or maybe neglected their health and family in order to pursue their passion. Conversely some of the activities that most people call rational (e.g. trying to manufacture a yummier biscuit) are to me quite irrational.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Robert,

Just out of interest, what would you class as a "yummier biscuit"?

Regards,

Simon

[m_w_r]

Just out of interest, what would you class as a "yummier biscuit"?

All these years on Casebook, and finally an opportunity to discuss biscuits. If I may contribute at this point, I'll go for the Jammie Dodger.

Regards,

Mark

[Robert]

Hi Simon

I guess it would be any biscuit that makes people go "mmm, yummiest biscuit I ever had. Let's buy 200 packets." Subjectively, the jammy dodger is one of the front runners - they don't disintegrate when dunked, do they, Mark.

[Adam Went]

You're all missing out on Tim Tam's! Very unhealthy but also very addictive biscuit, have known overseas residents to demand a supply of them from friends in Australia when they travel.

But back to the topic.... family stories like that generally seem to start from some false information - as you said in the title Ruby, Chinese whispers, and somewhere along the track, the info gets distorted, so the start of a true story might be that an ancestor lived in Whitechapel during the Ripper murders. Three or four generations later, that might become "my ancestor was a vigilance committee member who once came within a hair's breadth of catching the killer red handed."

And on it goes. That's why it's always a dangerous thing to be relying on third or fourth hand accounts.

Cheers,
Adam.

[claire]

Tim Tams!! Adam! How could you remind me of Tim Tams when I've little hope of getting my hands on any for a few months?!! I, and my waistline, fell prey to the fancy ones for a while (Black Forest, Mint...), but right now I'd cheerfully settle for a regular one to have with my coffee. As a mark of irrationality, I can cite my love for Tim Tams--and my husband's, who thought God had blessed him greatly when he found them for sale in the little grocery store near his place in Pakistan...

As far as this being a case too old to matter, I disagree. Trevor Bond's wonderful initiative to remember Frances Coles is a case in point: no one is too long dead to be remembered or respected. Just my tuppence worth!

[D.B.Wagstaff]

Research into my family geneaology really underscored how "Family Traditions" have to be taken with a grain of salt. Half of the "handed-down family history" nonsense some of my older relatives told me were greatly exagerated, inaccurate, or downright lies with no basis in reality. However, in all fairness, the information gathered from from my grandfather. as told to him by his grandfather (but not his father - he told a lot of "whoppers") turned out to be right on the money when compared to other data and documentation.

By the way, did I mention my great, great, grandmother was "Jill the Ripper"? Just kidding!

[Rubyretro]

[QUOTE]

Research into my family geneaology really underscored how "Family Traditions" have to be taken with a grain of salt. Half of the "handed-down family history" nonsense some of my older relatives told me were greatly exagerated, inaccurate, or downright lies with no basis in reality. However, in all fairness, the information gathered from from my grandfather. as told to him by his grandfather (but not his father - he told a lot of "whoppers") turned out to be right on the money when compared to other data and documentation.

That is the thing though, D.B., -you always wonder if there isn't some 'fire' under that smoke, because SOME of it may be true. Is it worth just discarding it all ? How do you decide what is crap, and what is worth acting on ?..because some of the people concerned might be like your Grandfather.

[claire]

I suppose it comes down to a question of what it is a person is trying to find out about their ancestry/heritage. If a person is genuinely interested in finding out more about their family history, then it's interesting for its own sake, regardless if there is someone famous/notorious/wealthy in there. So, I suppose, if one's prime reason is to discover whether one is really related to Shakespeare or whoever, then there's always going to be the chance that one is disappointed. But there's lots to make the heart beat faster in discovering that one's ancestors struggled to keep body and soul together: moving, but incredible that one is here at all.

I guess what I am trying to say is that, whatever you find out, it's not going to be crap, because it belongs to you, and is part of all the reasons that you are here.

[D.B.Wagstaff]

The only answer is to verify everything with corroborating evidence whenever possible. As I said, I took everything with a grain of salt until I began verifying my grandfather's evidence (as told to him by his grandfather) through other sources. Many of my other relatives turned out to be full of crap. Entertaining crap, but crap, nonetheless.

Of course, if there is no evidence to corroborate the story, you're stuck.

The problem with investigating the Ripper murders is the amount of missing, incomplete, unsubstantiated and conflicting evidence, not to mention hysteria, forgeries, hearsay, conjecture, exageration, sensationalist reporting, and outright lies.

No wonder many of us stumble along from one favored theory to another - we just don't have enough solid evidence to know which direction to search, let alone solve the mystery - YET (hopefully).

I did find out which of my relatives were full of crap, though! LOL!