Did the canonical 5 have pimps?

[Jane Coram]

Hi Greg,

Polly, Kate and Annie wouldn't really have had any effective way of dealing with troublesome clients if they were servicing them out on the streets. Well, they could have made a scene and got a bit stroppy with them, but ultimately they were in no condition to put up much of a fight. That's almost certainly why Jack picked them as victims in the first place. Liz, I suspect would have been a bit more feisty and given them a run for their money - literally.

There are several contemporary news items I've found, where older women (who may or may not have been prostitutes) have been beaten, kicked and robbed for a pittance. In one case a woman was kicked and beaten by a gang of youths for the shawl she was wearing. (Pleased to say they got 14 years hard labour for that!) and of course there is poor Emma Smith. Prostitutes would have been particularly vulnerable to lone muggers or street gangs, simply because they were out late at night in isolated places.

Most prostitutes would work around heavily trafficked roads, to get more chance of picking up a punter, and then take them to a nearby side street or alley to service them. They would still stay near the main road if possible though, so that the woman had a measure of protection.

Really though the older and destitute women were easy prey for low-lifes. I suspect that ladies like Polly and Annie, would generally try to stick to people they knew as customers, if at all possible. Annie for instance used to stay with Ted Stanley for the weekend on a regular basis, and he'd pay for her bed and presumably other things.

The other way they could protect themselves was to take the client to doss houses that doubled as brothels, like the White House, which is where Polly was staying for the last week or so of her life. The arrangement there would be that the customer simply pays for the double bed for the night and the woman slept with him. In other words, she got a bed for the night, possibly a couple of drinks and some supper and that was her payment. By far the safest and most pleasant option for her all round.

A tough old life.

Much love

Janie

xxxx

[GregBaron]

Very Vulnerable........

Good information again Jane, from your descriptions it
seems the ladies used their guile to do the best they
could for getting paid and not getting beaten or robbed.
Mostly common sense and a bit of intuition it seems. You
may be right in that Liz may have been a bit tougher gal
to abuse although her Berner St. demise might question that?
Again, assuming JtR approached them some time before they
ended up where they ended up, he apparently posed no threat
in their minds......as many have said, he mustn't have been
a blood shot eyed, filthy, foaming at the mouth vagrant like
Kosminksi but I suppose the run of the mill shabby genteel
East Ender.........Polly, Annie and Kate would have been the
most vulnerable class and the Ripper took full advantage....


Greg

[c.d.]

If the C5 had pimps (which I highly doubt), you would think that if they had any information or any suspicion as to Jack's identity gleaned from their prostitute, that they would have gone to the police in the hopes of getting a reward. I don't think at this point that the police would have cared how the pimps made their living.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

quotable quote

Hello Greg.

"That's the beauty of this case, at the end of the day, it's all smoke and mirrors"

Indeed! And that is one of the finest Ripper quotes I've seen in a long time.

Cheers.
LC

[The Snapper]

Not really convinced by the involvement of pimps for the C5. Victimis of bullying and assaults certainly but not consistently by the same individual/s. I'm not claiming this would have been true of all women who prostituted themselves. Just the C5. Possibly one of the reasons they fell prey to JTR.

[GregBaron]

Customer?

Jane had an excellent post that suggests at least Annie & Polly
were pretty much on their own. The others might have had a modicum
of protection at times....

I still wonder if these women procured their money in advance before
settling on a location. Something we'll probably never know and also
something that probably wasn't consistent. I believe JtR most likely
took any coins available as he needed them......

"That's the beauty of this case, at the end of the day, it's all smoke and mirrors"

Indeed! And that is one of the finest Ripper quotes I've seen in a long time.

Thanks for the compliment Lynn, it's skeptics like yourself and others
that have convinced me of the error of becoming too set on anything
in this case. I basically have no convictions at this point....

Another thought I have is.....was JtR a repeat customer? Maybe he assured
these ladies' graces by such and when they were completely comfortable he
pounced.........


Greg

[lynn cates]

convictions

Hello Greg.

"I basically have no convictions at this point"

Splendid! If more investigators were like you, perhaps the police would get more convictions (heh-heh).

Cheers.
LC

[ianincleveland]

Annie for certain would have struggled to fend off any robbers/pimps.Lets not forget she was really ill when JTR killed her.In fact im sure ive read shed probably have died that winter anyhow.

Polly might have put up a bit of a fight apart from being an alcoholic,as far as i know Polly wasnt in bad health.

Kate seemed to just have a relationship with John Kelly,resorting to occasional prostitution to keep them alive basically.

Mary probably didnt have a pimp,though its possible Fleming occasionally took money off her.Its been said McCarthy was a pimp but if he was why did Mary owe all that rent.Ive often wondered did McCarthy kill Mary in a row over the rent?? Or that he wanted her earnings?

[c.d.]

Hi Ian,

It doesn't make a lot of sense from an economical standpoint to kill someone who owes you money. A good beating would have gotten the message across. But even if McCarthy did kill her over the rent, why would he rip out her intestines and basically butcher her? That speaks much more of sickness than anger.

c.d.

[Jane Coram]

Hi,

I think with the actual murders, that it wasn't so much a case of whether the women could normally defend themselves, but whether they could defend themselves from the position they were in when they were attacked. Their killer almost certainly didn't give them a chance to defend themselves -- except perhaps in Mary's case.

The problem was that if a victim is taken by surprise by someone like Jack, then no matter how capable they are of defending themselves usually, they don't stand much of a chance of getting out of it in one piece, unless they are very lucky.

Polly for instance, was very drunk and staggering at 2.30, and although she wasn't killed until about an hour later -- she would probably have still be pretty drunk. It seems likely from the position of her clothing that Polly was actually holding her clothes up around her waist when she was attacked.

Charles Cross said that it was a devil of a job trying to pull her clothes down again with her dead weight on them. Jack would have had even more of a job pulling them up. So it does seem likely they were already up when Jack attacked Polly.

Jack didn't really give her a chance to defend herself. Her hands were occupied, and she possibly had her back to him. All he had to do was to put his arm around her throat, or cover her nose and mouth to stop her breathing and she would be out like a light in seconds. The only blessing is she probably didn't know anything about it.

Jack almost certainly used basically the same method with all of the victims except Mary, and it's a bit hard to say what happened there.

Even if Polly, Annie and Liz had pimps, it wouldn't have really made any difference, unless the pimp happened to be hidden behind the nearest lamp post and was watching them the whole time, so that he could step in and save them if needed.

Kate too would have been in the same position. John Kelly was tucked up at home when Kate was murdered, so offered her no protection at all at the crucial moment, more's the pity.

So, I have to say, even if the ladies had pimps, it probably wouldn't have done them much good when it came to it.

Much love

Janie

xxxxx

[Jane Coram]

Hi,

Thought I'd better not confuse the issue and put this on the other post. I confuse people enough as it is at the best of times.

I mentioned Don Souden's article 'Time on My Side,' in Ripper Notes in an earlier post and it really is worth a read, if you can get hold of a copy.

McCarthy was described as a 'Bully' by some of his contemporaries, and it had a different connotation to the way it's used today. It was used mainly as a term for a pimp or a ponce. The actual definition in the etymology dictionary is 'protector of a prostitute'.

McCarthy certainly knew that many of the women living in his rents were prostitutes. His shop was at the entrance to the court, he would see all of the comings and goings into the properties, and he served the women in his shop. Unless he was blind, deaf and stupid, then he would have heard their conversations, and there would be no way he would have any doubt what the ladies got up to most of the time.

Some newspaper reports state that his wife went to collect the rents from the properties, some that the rents were collected daily and of course on the day the Mary was killed Thomas Bowyer was at Mary's door collecting money from her. If Mrs McCarthy collected the rents, what was Bowyer doing there that morning?

Don suggested that one possibility might be that he was there collecting MCarthy's share of Mary's takings from the previous night. Of course it's only a possibility, but a logical one all the same. The other possibility is that McCarthy let the women have food from his shop 'on tick'. That is, that he let them run up credit and pay him later. If that was the case, then all he had to do was to top up the amount they owed as his share of their takings. He could also have topped up the money owed as rent as well to get his cut. They could hardly object, or they'd be thrown out.

Who's to say that the 'rent' that Mary owed was all actually rent?

Personally, I do think that McCarthy was getting a cut from the prostitutes that rented his properties some way or other.

Hugs

Janie

xxxxx

[richardnunweek]

Hi Jane,
I find the definition'Protector of a prostitute' intresting, I can imagine McCarthy did indeed keep a watchful eye on his female court dwellers.
You may remember Fiona Kendall decribing on one occasion, her great grandfather McCarthy, evicting someone from kellys past from the court, who claimed she stole belongings from him.
Fiona also claimed that McCarthy used to view the court from a back window and missed nothing, that being the case he proberly observed all the goings on at room 13.
One intresting point on the morning of the 9th nov, it was reported that Mrs M, and Fiona's grandfather were actually collecting rents in the court from the other residents, so the question is [ as you stated] why did they not knock for rent on the door of kellys room.?
A possible explanation is according to one report, several of kellys friends , were somewhat concerned, that Mary did not answer the door, which may have originated from Catherine picketts knock at 730am [ to borrow a shawl]
And McCarthy may have been slightly concerned himself, having possibly seen people enter her room during the night, and having these doubts sent his man Bowyer to check, all was ok.
But why not for the rent?
Why was she spared, when the other residents were apparently not?
He could hardly admit the true reason, otherwise all his other dwellers would take the mickey with their payments.
food for thought.
Great to see your posts again incidently...
Regards Richard.