Did the canonical 5 have pimps?

[GregBaron]

While discussing coinage on another thread I began to wonder
how these women secured payment? Without a threat of some
kind, I would think many of their roughneck customers would wrestle
the coins from them after sex.........this also suggests
to me that they probably demanded payment in advance so in each case
before JtR pounced they should have had a few coins in a pocket somewhere and so
obviously before leaving he resecured these coins. It appears that
these paltry sums were indeed needed by Jack and therefore he was far from a Toff
.....now it's possible that a gentleman might also be a cheapskate and want the money
back but it seems unlikely.......to me this gives less credibility to the Druitt, Gull,
Tumblety etc....suspects....Maybrick too.....now I know there might be many
reasons a fairly well off psycho might retrieve his payment but again every
second is precious with discovery imminent.......so help me out you all....

1) Do you think these women had pimps or a threat of some kind? Would they
scrap with a scoundrel for their pay?

2) If they had pimps or an enforcer of some kind would he not
know there areas of solicitation and perhaps even some customers
or customer types?(ie; Jews, Sailors) And what kind of cut would he get from such small sums?

3) Where would these women store what little bit of money they had? I would
think in a place not easily stolen...would Jack be able to swiftly
procure it in the dark?

4) Is there any way coins could be used as evidence?


I apologize if such things have been discussed before...........


Greg

[lynn cates]

premises/conclusions

Hello Greg. This is an interesting question or, better, set of questions.

Permit me to point out, however, that it already assumes a great deal about these 5 ladies.

First, it assumes that all 5 were prostitutes or at least sometimes earned money that way.

Second, it assumes that each of the 5 were soliciting when they were assaulted and killed.

Although these assumptions have been made numerous times, I hardly need point out that, if the assumptions are not correct, then the question becomes moot.

So, in consequence, permit me to ask, Whence have we certainty that assumptions 1 & 2 are true?

The best.
LC

[GregBaron]

Fair Point..........

Wow, you sure know how to take the wind out of a guy's sails quickly Lynn.....you're like the teacher in the old movies who slaps the naive student back into his rightful place......

Um, Ok for the sake of this discussion, let's make these assumptions..........

I must say I doubt at the time and places they were found that they were discussing the latest parliamentary debates but hmmmmm, again just an assumption....

Greg

[Jane Coram]

Hi,

Some interesting points there Greg.

I think the question of a pimp would vary according which victim we're talking about.

Usually the pimps or ponces back then would tend to stick to the younger women that would earn more money for them, much the same as today really.
By the time the women got to the states that Polly and Annie were in, then there wasn't really anything in it for them. They were barely earning enough to pay for food, doss and booze. Definitely no pimps.

Kate Eddowes and John Kelly were in a very stable relationship and although she may have prostituted herself occasionally, he definitely wasn't her pimp.

I've often wondered whether Joe Fleming was Mary's pimp, or at least poncing off of her, but who knows? Joe Barnett certainly wasn't!

I suspect that Liz couldn't give a toss what Kidney thought about her escapades, but whether or not he took money from her that she'd earned from soliciting, I'm not sure. I doubt she would have given it up easily, knowing Liz. Lol.

It does seem that people like Alfred Coates and John McCarthy, who were called 'Bullies' by the locals, were at least happy to let prostitutes use their premises for immoral purposes. McCarthy's protests that he knew nothing about it, seem rather pathetic when you look at the circumstances.
It's almost certain he was getting something out of the women that lived in his properties to let them use them.

Don Souden wrote an excellent article in Ripper Notes 26 'Time is on My Side,' which deals with the suggestion that McCarthy might have been taking a rake off from Mary.

There were a great many street gangs in the area that demanded money with menaces from the prostitutes. The Hoxton mob were one such, and a nasty bunch by the sound of it. The High-Rip gang were another. Mostly these gangs were teenagers, called 'Hooligans' and they were vicious buggers, as testified to by poor Emma Smith. They ranged in age from young teenagers to about 25, and were comprised of boys and girls. Buck's Row was actually a bit of a hot spot for gang muggings, as testified to by Robert Paul. I think that's why the police might have initially suspected a gang had killed Polly.

Many women (not just prostitutes) stitched themselves pockets to keep possessions in, as they didn't come built into skirts and dresses as they do these days -- or they would put things in their apron pockets. These home-made pockets would be hidden under their skirts, so that the contents couldn't be stolen, or just tied around their waist with a bit of string. Kate seemed to have had several.

Very good post Greg, lots of things to discuss there!!

Much love

Janie

xxx

[GregBaron]

Gangs etc....

Thanks Jane,

Excellent information....I definitely learned a few things there.....and good point about the young versus not-so-young ladies.........

I still wonder, especially with Polly and Annie, what they would do if they got stiffed by some loser......my guess is nothing.........just go on and hope the next guy isn't such a low life....boy theirs was a hardscrabble life....

I need to read the essay you mentioned.....

Greg

[lynn cates]

sorry

Hello Greg. Sorry. Although I am an ancient pedagogue who is switched on to professorial mode far too often, I did not intend to come off that way. I merely wished to point out that we were beginning with some assumptions. Of course, that's a thing we all do. For example, I assume that there is an external reality; but, until now at least, there exists no non question-begging argument for that.

I think the solicitation assumption is a good one vis-a-vis Polly and Annie. On the other hand, I find it hard to imagine that Russian Jewish folk music (Liz) or Irish folk music (MJ) promote libidinousness. But, then again, I was never mad about Ravel's "Bolero' either.

Cheers.
LC

[GregBaron]

Pedantic Pedagogues.........love em...

No problem Lynn,

Ancient pedagogue's are a good thing........and you're right about assumptions.........perhaps that explains why they didn't have any money.....they weren't soliciting.!...now I have to go back the drawing board....

Most would probably agree with you about Annie and Polly so we can base our discussion on them......

Maybe Jack simply engaged them in genteel conversation about Irish or Jewish folk music as they strolled the dim avenues until she began whistling a tune .........and then madness struck...........

Perhaps that's the missing link......Jack was a Dr. Jekyll until the sound of a corny folk tune transformed him into a Mr. Hyde............?


Greg

[lynn cates]

music hath charm

Hello Greg. There's a thought for you! If it is true that:

"Music hath charm to soothe the savage breast"

why could it also not exacerbate it as you say? And so a meek, mild mannered chap hears a chorus of Tum Balalaika and goes ballistic. (heh-heh)

I notice, too, that you adhere to the common notion that Polly and Annie's assailant was a cunning and calculating chap. Why is that? Could it be the letter and card purported to be from "Jack" reinforces that point of view?

But what if Polly and Annie's killer were not clever? What if he were merely bat guano crazy?

Cheers.
LC

[GregBaron]

Clever?

I don't believe in the letters Lynn.......although I vacillate somewhat on the From Hell note...

I'm not sure about clever but being a Canon 5 man I think the lack of evidence speaks of what some have called animal cunning.....

I'm still wondering how these women secured their doss money from dark corners......?


Greg

[lynn cates]

letters and canons

Hello Greg.

"I don't believe in the letters"

Good for you! I think those silly letters have caused a good deal of trouble in how we perceive the WCM.

Tell me though, just out of curiosity, why do you believe in the C5?

Cheers.
LC

[GregBaron]

Modus Operandi....

I'd go with the same M.O. on the C5 although I'm not dead set on that either......

On thing for sure, the more I learn the less I know...


Greg

[lynn cates]

MO

Hello Greg.

"the more I learn the less I know"

You are wise in your generation.

By MO, are you referring to the mutilations (4/5), the cut throats, or the fact that the assailant got away?

Cheers.
LC

[GregBaron]

Method of Operation...........

Not sure about wise in my generation....we may be of the same generation.....I don't like to admit my age because it pains me.......anyway.........


I'd go with those things and a few others Lynn......dark locations, early morning, chokehold or strangulation of some sort, throat cutting, evisceration and departing without a trace or nary a sound..........Of course Stride and MJK are a bit different for the much discussed reasons.....I believe Dr. Bond also suggested the C5 were of the same hand...

Greg

[lynn cates]

Bond, Thomas Bond

Hello Greg. Yes, Bond did indeed suggest that they were all from the same hand. That after seeing one of them and reading about the rest. This reminds one of Inspector Harry "Snapper" Organs who kept tabs on the Piranha brother's every movement--by reading the colour supplements.

And of course, there's Sir MLM. He was only a mere 6 months removed from the action.

Cheers.
LC

[GregBaron]

Scientists speculating..........

Well yes, not very scientific of Dr. Bond was it Lynn....

That's the beauty of this case, at the end of the day, it's all smoke and mirrors........

That's why we're here I suppose...........

Now what was the topic? Oh yeah, pimps, surely Annie and Polly had ways of dealing with the cretins they often came in contact with who didn't feel like paying......but how?

Greg