Can anyone help ?

[spyglass]

Hi all,
I would be gratefull if anyone could help me or point me in the right direction concerning the following imfomation.

1. Michell Raper is said to have seen official papers whilst researching a play about JTR in the early 70's, about Warrens views on the Goulston street graffito, believing it to be written by an Irishman.

Do we know anymore about this, or is it even true ?

Many thanks inadvance for any imfo.

[Tom_Wescott]

If I were at home I could give you the exact quotes from Warren, but unfortunately I am not. However, he did not categorically state he thought an Irishman wrote it. He certainly did think it was written by the Ripper, as did most police officials. He also felt that the only possible solution to the murders was that a secret society was behind it. He seems to have based this theory almost solely on the graffiti. He did suggest that an Irishman might have written it, so he might have been suspecting Fenians, but I recall something also mentioned of a Spaniard or an Italian, although I can't recall his exact words at this moment.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

secret society

Hello Spy. Concerning that secret society, Warren writes in a memo of October 12 (or thereabouts) that he had thought a secret society was behind the killings, but that they were probably not socialists. But in the memo he changes his mind based on a somewhat convoluted story of an Austrian informant, The informant (Jonas) claimed to be a socialist and that the perpetrator was from a more violent wing of the party and seeking to bring opprobrium on the IWMEC.

Later on, the informant was considered discredited. (The story is in chapter 16 of Evans and Skinner's "Ultimate Companion.") A thought provoking question is whether Jonas was making this up out of whole cloth or merely building upon a fundamentum in re.

We know that something like this had happened on the continent with the anarchist/police spy Kaufmann (aka, Morff). When his men were hanged, he went into exile and wound up in London (from a story in Morris' "Commonweal").

Rudolph Rocker, in his "The London Years," describes a similar event later with Tschichikoff (sp?).

It could be that Warren thought he saw traces of the Irish in these stories. That would be natural, given that many socialist speeches of the time could not be given without at least a passing reference to the Irish question.

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

that he had thought a secret society was behind the killings, but that they were probably not socialists. But in the memo he changes his mind based on a somewhat convoluted story of an Austrian informant

I don't recall Warren changing his mind and deciding that a socialist was behind the murders.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

solution

Hello Tom. Look on pp. 313 & 14.

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

Why don't you just tell us, Lynn.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

Warren

Hello Tom & Spy. I regret the delay--work, you know.

Here is the quote:

“As Mr. Matthews is aware I have for some time past inclined to the idea that the murders may possibly be done by a secret society, as the only logical solution to the question, but I would not understand this being done by a Socialist because the last murders were obviously done by some one desiring to bring discredit on the Jews and Socialists or Jewish Socialists.
But in the suggestion of the informant we have a solution, viz;--that it is done by a renegade socialist [sic] to bring discredit on his former comrades.”

In other words, it seemed a secret society at work, but what sense to make of a Socialist doing it?

For what tiny bit it's worth, I had the same problem. It looks like Liz has met her assailant at the side door and is walking out to the gates. But I stuck at her "escort" killing her after a few steps towards the gates. If it's a club member, why do this? It should be ANYWHERE BUT the club.

But with this story, it makes sense to kill her INSIDE the yard. And the assailant is a guest, not a member.

The best.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

Thanks for that, Lynn. But it seems Warren didn't change his mind, he merely opened it to the idea of a renegade socialist, whatever that is. And yes, most of the men at the IWEC that night would have been attendees, not members. One of them was likely an undercover policeman, but more on that another time.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

anarchist

Hello Tom. The renegade Socialist was most likely an anarchist. The Kaufmann I described above was referred to as a "police anarchist." Actually, he orchestrated something like this on the continent and hired some people to commit murder. They were hanged; he was exiled to England.

My reference to Warren changing his mind refers to his thinking it can't be a Socialist (a very natural assumption) to, it CAN be a socialist. The informant's story provided a gestallt shift for Warren. Or, as you say, he opened his mind to a different possibility.

The best.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

I hear you. The most remarkable thing is how Warren ever came to consider a secret society as being the only logical solution to the question. I'm pretty sure Ruggles-Bryce must have fallen out of his chair after reading that one!

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

surprise

Hello Tom. My jaw dropped as well. I have no idea where he got that.

Cheers.
LC

[Hamrammr]

I really wish that graffito had never been found. We will probably never know for sure if it had any relevance to the crimes, and discussion about it just seems to make the water even more murky than it already is, which is pretty murky!