The return of borrowed documents

[The Good Michael]

Hi,

I was reflecting upon the notion that many documents missing from JTR files had been taken as souvenirs by policemen, relatives, ripperologists, and others over the years. How can we get them back? The answer might be that we will never get them back. But if an appeal goes out to the possessors of such things to at least make copies of them and send them to Kew or elsewhere anonymously, that there shouldn't be any reasonable argument against their doing so.

Perhaps some of the perpetrators are deceased and the documents have passed into the hands of family members. I could then see it be embarrassing to turn in originals and having to say that mom or dad had them in their collection. But surely there should be no objection to making copies and sending them in. How to get the message out might be the real question.

Mike

[Adam Went]

It's a good suggestion, Michael, but such a request for information would, if it yielded anything at all, probably lead to some people supplying fake/forged documents....we have been faced with this sort of thing enough times before in the case.

Also, there would be a great deal more documents which have been lost or destroyed (deliberately or accidentally - I believe some documents were lost during the bombing raids on London in World War II). Unfortunately the passing of 122 years has allowed for plenty of time for this to happen.

Still, be in no doubt that there will still be plenty of fresh information that will come forward from somewhere....

Cheers,
Adam.

[DVV]

I suggest a house-to-house search.

Sir Charles Warren

[Phil Carter]

Hello Mike, Adam, all,

This subject is one which, as you may know, I am most passionate about. I have previously called for the return of such documents, papers and files.
Although many of us agree that we need to see these previously purloined documents etc returned, nothing seems to have been done.

What we are actually asking for is straight forward honesty.... or that people will realise that they have a moral concience, in the name of historical accuracy. All without being scared of legal consequences or any humiliation of any sort.

And of course, we must consider that a few people will have sold on the purloined papers to collectors, and the thought of loss of finance will also be a consideration.

The only consolation I suppose, is that anyone who initially took the documents from the files, have had around 25-35 years already to make money out of the idea, via sale or via publication of books, should that have been the original intention.

Mike, you ask HOW we can get these documents returned.

The best chance is that the message gets out to as many as possible. Therefore I propose that someone pulls in the national and international media, both via the newspapers and TV, in a sort of mass appeal. We have the opportunity here on this site, as well as through the jtr forums, to keep banging the drum. There is also the outlet of different Ripper magazines and crime periodicals, collectors magazines etc.

It would also be an idea to get an official amnesty concept launched at a higher level. I have no idea how the authorities, the police at the highest level and the politicians, amongst others, would react to this question.

Adam, you raise the point of fake/forged documents turning up. I have the feeling that those wanting to do this, will try to con everyone anyway. That is all part of the con, to fool as many as possible for as long as possible. Sadly, it is part of their game.

I wonder about one thing...are there people who read these words that know where things are? If not in their own posession, then in the homes of others?
If so, then we must ask, plead and persuade, often and adamantly, in order for people to do the decent thing.

Thank you Mike, for once again bringing up this subject. Well played that man.

best wishes

Phil

[The Good Michael]

I wonder about one thing...are there people who read these words that know where things are? If not in their own posession, then in the homes of others?

Phil,

I'm sure the responsible parties do read these threads and watch the documentaries and read the books. That's why I called for at minimum, some discreet copying of the documents. It could be photos or copies put into PDFs. I suggest that an appeal of this sort be made in all future books, magazines, and TV shows... even Rippercasts. Of course the originals would be best, but there might be elements of shame, guilt, and/or fear involved, so I suggested a compromised return of items.

Cheers,

Mike

[DirectorDave]

While I would obviously like to see "borrowed" documents returned or indeed copies of "borrowed" documents returned.........I think we would have to make sure that what is being returned are copies of "borrowed" documents.

Faking JtR documents have been happening quite literally since day one......and saying "Oh we would be able to tell" is rather hopeful as we are still arguing over the authenticity of almost all the JtR related documents we have.

[Adam Went]

Phil:

It is a fantastic cause to try and promote, and there can be no doubt that somewhere, someone has some files or police records that nobody has seen before or even knows about - and that they are deliberately keeping them for themselves, or perhaps more likely, they have no interest in the JTR case at all and have just thrown them aside and never bothered with them.

There certainly couldn't be any harm in sending out a request for new information. We would just need to be prepared for....well, less than useful information coming forward as well.

Cheers,
Adam.

[The Grave Maurice]

It's a nice idea, but I suspect that we'll never see any of the documents. The original borrowers would probably never admit that they had them (even by sending photocopies) and the relatives would be unlikely to recognize their value.

[Phil Carter]

Phil,

I'm sure the responsible parties do read these threads and watch the documentaries and read the books. That's why I called for at minimum, some discreet copying of the documents. It could be photos or copies put into PDFs....

Hello all,

In response to Mike's comments above....

To all readers and users of this website.

On behalf of very many of those interested in the Whitechapel Murders/Jack the Ripper Case, worldwide, we would dearly like to see the return of any papers, documents or official files, previously held at record offices and archives (national and otherwise) and any such places, that pertain to and are connected with the above series of crimes.

In the name of historcal interest, we ask anyone who has any knowledge as to the whereabouts or knowledge of posession of said documents, papers, official files etc, to make every effort to encourage and help return, if possible, to the proper authorities, any of these documents, etc.

Should this not be the preferred method, we would also encourage electronic mail usage, if thought more appropriate, to any person they think fit to do the appropriate thing and return said copies to the above sources.
I am sure that if need be, some sort of confidentiality agreement could be legally agreed and/or signed between the parties, to withold any person's name to enable the sender and/or current custodian or previous custodian of the documents to remain totally anonymous.

This is being written in the genuine hope that these documents are indeed returned, and the aim is not to highlight in whose custody these papers lie, nor who should return them. It is written in the hope that we can further the historical cause of known factual knowledge for current and future generations.
Your every effort is most appreciated by many deeply interested in the above historical occurances and events from this period of fascinating political and social history. Thank you.


Well Mike, Adam, GM, Dave, David, all... that's a start. I hope it helps.

best wishes

Phil

[Raoul's Obsession]

Now here's a topic close to my heart - I fully agree. Some posts on another thread got me thinking about this. I hope those out there with documents pertaining to the crimes at least send through a copy of the original for us to add to the body of knowledge.

To all those who are worried about fakes coming in - I would rather add documents to the list of potential fakes and argue about their veracity than risk loosing even one genuine document forever. Let us argue - it's what we're good at.

Raoul

[Rubyretro]

An excellent Post !

It's not just that people may hold missing official documents..but that there has recently been a huge fashion for tracing Family Trees through the internet.

It's therefore very likely that people who are related to Mary Kelly, (yes !) Hutch, and other shadowy people linked to the Case, may hold info that would enable more experienced researchers to get more of a handle on them..

...and who knows what that info might turn up ?

There certainly needs to be a campaign through the National Newspapers, with a sort of written 'Robot Portrait' of the people that we want to know about, with criteria for replying.

It would be so difficult to sift through the info ...but I feel that Casebook is just the place to find the people up to the job..

[DrHopper]

Now here's a topic close to my heart - I fully agree. Some posts on another thread got me thinking about this. I hope those out there with documents pertaining to the crimes at least send through a copy of the original for us to add to the body of knowledge.

To all those who are worried about fakes coming in - I would rather add documents to the list of potential fakes and argue about their veracity than risk loosing even one genuine document forever. Let us argue - it's what we're good at.

Raoul

I think this a superb idea, but there needs to a definite caveat applied to any documents that are obtained in this way... some form of warning attached to them. Yes, it is important that the documents are returned, but at the risk of mixing 100 fake documents in with a single real one, well no. I would argue that it is absolutely not worth the risk, as Raoul's Obsession wrote above, to include them and argue about them later.
I'm an archaeologist, and the first thing we learn is that any context (that is pit, hole, room, group of artifacts, etc) that may have been disturbed by later activity (for example, a 12th century pit that also contains 18th century material) is immediately discounted as primary evidence, and may only be used as secondary evidence, and then only to back up an argument.
This stands as law in archaeology, and I suggest the same rigorous and strict rules be applied to documents that spring forward - it is not worth the risk of contaminating what little we already have by way of evidence.

But yes, open the gates to what will follow... something may turn up. I might also suggest that individuals contact their local press. Local newspapers like a good story, and the possibility that someone in their readership is somehow connected to the Ripper is irresistible.

[Stewart P Evans]

Missing Documents

The missing documents most likely to turn up may well be those that were the last to disappear. The following two Public Record Office memo slips in the police files noted the loss of the file on the Emma Smith murder and the so-called 'suspects files'.

[Trevor Marriott]

The answer is simple whoever has then could simply put them in a plain envelope and send then to me with no names and no pack drill. As has has been seen I have been campaigning for a long time for the return of these documents or for the owners to come forward and make them public if they are in lawful posession of any missing documents.

Sending them to the likes of Scotland yard would not guarantee that they would subsequently be made public. I have no hidden agendas behind that suggestion and it would ensure that these were made public before returning them to their rightful owners.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Trevor,

You acting as middle-man for the safe and transparent return of documents is an excellent idea.

I wish you every success.

Regards,

Simon