Leather Apron

[Tom_Wescott]

Wickerman's drawings

Wickerman's explanation is very sound and accounts for the broken nose visible in the photograph. But she must have been unconscious before all this took place, as she was already on the ground and did not struggle.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

Leather Apron was supposed to be fairly powerful. His eyes and grin were supposed to be malignant and repellant. I presume that, when confronted with this chap, many were delighted to part with 2d rather that continue the confrontation.

Hmmm, just figured I share a few common traits with Leatherface – err, Leather Apron. That's presumably the reason why I'm getting all the funding I ask for – for conferences and research. At least I assume this must be the reason. :-p
Who said anything about a broken nose? Eddowes' nose looks like cut with a sharp knife, not broken. I'm sorta familiar with broken noses, have broken mine about 4 times. And no visible signs left and it doesn't even hurt (much).

[lynn cates]

a word to the (not so) wise

Hello Maria.

"That's presumably the reason why I'm getting all the funding I ask for – for conferences and research."

Hmm, could you have a word with my chair? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

the secrets of acquired $$ funding

Done deal, Lynn. That is, if you'd agree to give me a little money every day.

[Tom_Wescott]

Who said anything about a broken nose? Eddowes' nose looks like cut with a sharp knife, not broken.

I was referring to Wickerman's drawings of Nichols, nothing to do with Eddowes. Surely I'm not the only one who has noticed Polly's broken nose in the photograph? Dr. Llewellyn missed it, but no surprise there. Could be an old break, but it doesn't look like it had been reset, so probably fresh. Anyway, Wick's explanation of the face wounds also explains the nose.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. Thanks.

In Annie's case, let's assume that she scratched herself. That is indeed consistent with wishing to remove the ligature. But, unless the hands strangling are immobile, it is also consistent with manual strangulation.

As for Polly, Dr. Llewellyn thought the bruise resulted from a thumb OR a blow.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn.
If you read Dr. Phillips's conclusions about Annie's scratches, he describes a similar hold as I show on Polly in those drawings, and this maybe so.
If the scratches were indeed high (1.5-2.0") under the lobe of the left ear then Phillips may be correct. I just have trouble seeing how fingers in that position could leave perpendicular scratches (assuming "contrary" means vertical, as opposed to the horizontal cut).
I'm sure the killer held her head in that way regardless.

Wickerman's explanation is very sound and accounts for the broken nose visible in the photograph. But she must have been unconscious before all this took place, as she was already on the ground and did not struggle.

Thankyou Tom, certainly she was unconscious when her throat was cut.
A genuine ligature mark on a corpse is shown here:



We can't say whether time is a factor in defining the line on the neck, but as you can see the killer should have little trouble running his knife through the ligature mark to obliterate evidence of its use.

...Who said anything about a broken nose? Eddowes' nose looks like cut with a sharp knife, not broken.

Maria, snap out of it, we're talking about Polly Nichols here. We are on the Leather Apron thread, even I am courting a severe reprimand by talking about Polly and you introduce Eddowes?

I'm sorta familiar with broken noses, have broken mine about 4 times.

Y'er headin' fer anuther lass


All the best, Jon S.

[mariab]

To Wick:
So sorry, I mistook your drawing for Eddowes in haste.

ISurely I'm not the only one who has noticed Polly's broken nose in the photograph? Dr. Llewellyn missed it, but no surprise there. Could be an old break, but it doesn't look like it had been reset, so probably fresh. Anyway, Wick's explanation of the face wounds also explains the nose.

I'm looking it up right now, but the casebook Nichols postmortem pic is too small, from the wrong angle, and doesn't download on my malfunctioning comp (where I was hoping to magnify it).
In my experience there are 2 ways to break one's nose: One where it gets as broad upstairs as downstairs and needs to be “pushed in“ (got that once in a whipeout when surfing), and one where it bleeds profusely for a while but hardly hurts at all. (Got that thrice, when eating a swimming pool wall twice, and a door on my face once.) In both cases, nose fully heals in about 3 weeks tops, no signs left. Unless it wasn't “properly“ broken, like in boxing. But even in boxing, sometimes there are no signs left, like a misshaped nose, so not sure how it works.

[Bridewell]

I'm looking it up right now, but the casebook Nichols postmortem pic is too small

Hi Maria,

It's used to illustrate Christer's article in Ripperologist 126 if you have access to it.

Regards, Bridewell.

[mariab]

Thanks so much Bridewell, I haven't received Rip #126 yet, but I'm sure it's on its way.

[lynn cates]

first hand

Hello Jon. Thanks. I agree that, at times, the wording from inquest is a bit vague.

Would it not be lovely to see the wounds first hand? No more guessing.

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

How is a woman expected to see crazy and evil eyes in a man in darkness.

In my lifetime i havent seen to many men or women with crazy and evil looks in their eyes except on here !

Hi Trevor,

Long time since weve spoken. The way I see this is that the women were not accosted or threatened or whathaveyou in the dark corners of the streets, when the women were in dark corners they were working. He likely shakes them down on the way from a liason, when they had money,.. hence, its not kosher to assume there wasnt adequate light.

Hi again Lynn,

Those comments seem to indicate the eyes were seen clearly, a subtle change of facial expression from blank to a sly grin also seen.

I agree Lynn the women werent ready to prepare their best defense, but I believe 2 later Canonicals might have posed a challenge. I recall speaking with I believe it was Hunter long ago, and he described techniques where subduing the victim is a matter of second or fractions thereof.

Even a garrote or ligature skillfully employed can substitute well for an overpowering kind of attack. Not all of them struggled.

Strong forearms maybe, from slicing up some of those huge hogs that dot the landscape in your north lands.

Cheers Lynn, Trevor.

Mike R