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  • #1

    Fingerprints & Photography?

    I'm assuming this has been discussed and I just haven't seen it...or at least
    I haven't seen much. Maybe one of you has a simple answer. My question is:
    Why no attempts at fingerprinting or more photography? I realize fingerprinting was in its infancy but it did exist and photography, at least from the daguerrotype onwards, had been around about 50 years or so......was it budgetary, incompetence, unlikely to yield results, not enough manpower? etc..etc.... There must be a simple explanation but think if we had detailed photographs of the crime scenes and perhaps fingerprints of most of the police suspects..!..... oh how with modern techniques we could analyze to our hearts content.......mind you, I'm not saying the crime could or would be solved but it sure couldn't hurt....can someone enlighten me...?

    Thanks,

    Greg
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  • #2
    Greg,


    First of all, fingerprinting wasn't introduced into Scotland Yard untill after 1900. Unless I am mistaken so it wasn't used yet. At least not there. Also there would be no use to it due to the fact that they had no database to search from. The only use I would think would be to determine who killed who.

    In the light of photographs I wish they had used this to their full advantage. Taking photos of the victims in situ and then taking mortuary photos of them. A mortuary photo of Kelly would do us wounders.

    Yours truly
    Last edited by corey123; 02-20-2010, 07:38 PM.
    Washington Irving:

    "To a homeless man, who has no spot on this wide world which he can truly call his own, there is a momentary feeling of something like independence and territorial consequence, when, after a weary day's travel, he kicks off his boots, thrusts his feet into slippers, and stretches himself before an inn fire. Let the world without go as it may; let kingdoms rise and fall, so long as he has the wherewithal to pay his bills, he is, for the time being, the very monarch of all he surveys. The arm chair in his throne; the poker his sceptre, and the little parlour of some twelve feet square, his undisputed empire. "

    Stratford-on-Avon

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    • #3
      Fingerprinting not quite there....

      Thanks Corey, yeah, to set up a fingerprinting department might take some doing and I realize there was no database....in fact they wouldn't have that word in their vocabulary but they did have files..........I believe the French might have been experimenting with fingerprinting at this time...I just thought that since this series of crimes was such a big deal, with the Queen aware etc.., that they might have called the French to come up and show them how to fingerprint Kosminski, Chapman, Levy ..whomever and begin to try to lift them from the crime scene if in fact another was committed...wishful thinking I know but I wonder if it was even considered or even possible? As for photography, they probably weren't accustomed to photographing crime scenes and by the time it became a series it may have been too late...of course they did snap a shot of Mary Kelly..ugh..
      but again, did any of these wise gentleman even think of these possibilities..? CSI has come along way hasn't it...

      Greg

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      • #4
        Hi Greg,

        Very wishful thinking. No... I doubt Scotland Yard would invite France to help them. It would destroy that type of department ego they had and that other law enforcement departments have and had.

        The only reason they did photograph the victims was for identification.

        Yours truly
        Washington Irving:

        "To a homeless man, who has no spot on this wide world which he can truly call his own, there is a momentary feeling of something like independence and territorial consequence, when, after a weary day's travel, he kicks off his boots, thrusts his feet into slippers, and stretches himself before an inn fire. Let the world without go as it may; let kingdoms rise and fall, so long as he has the wherewithal to pay his bills, he is, for the time being, the very monarch of all he surveys. The arm chair in his throne; the poker his sceptre, and the little parlour of some twelve feet square, his undisputed empire. "

        Stratford-on-Avon

        Comment

        • #5
          I think you are being a little unfair asking why fingerprints and photographs were not taken. The answer is simple – because it was not believed they would have been of any use in the investigation. You must try and understand how investigations were carried out then, and it wasn’t by using forensic methods such as that.

          For example today a hair that has been pulled from a person’s head is an important piece of evidence as from that we can obtain DNA. However sixty years ago we didn’t know that, therefore the collecting of stray hairs would have been very low down on the ‘to do list’. These things are always easy to ask with the benefit of hindsight, not so simple at the time.

          For example take fingerprints. Whilst the existence of them as a method of identification had been used since Babylonian times, I believe the first use in a criminal case was in 1892. Don’t forget it had to be established for legal purposes that no two prints were alike; otherwise they were useless as evidence.

          To explain the point better, let us say that in 100 years time it will be possible to take a sample of air and identify through super DNA everyone who had contributed to that air. So you arrive at a crime scene take a sample of air and say without doubt that persons A, B & C were present at the time of the crime. You establish time of death by analysing the sample and finding out when the victim’s breath no longer appeared in it. You then discover whose breath was there at the same time the victim breathed his last and Bingo – you have your man!

          Now in 100 years time someone might be writing on a website saying “Why didn’t the police take a sample of air during the Yorkshire Ripper case? How remiss of them!” The answer is the same – because they didn’t see a use for it.

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          • #6
            Csi 1888...............

            Not sure about your air example Bob but I get your point. I think you are right and I'm not attempting to blame. I just wonder if it was considered and I guess the answer is no. I'm still a bit surprised about not seeing the value of photography but again, as you said, time and place is everything........I believe Conan Doyle was publishing his detective stories about this time and of course Edgar Poe invented detective fiction some fifty years prior....perhaps if the cops read a bit more fiction they might have improved their deduction skills? Grasping huh...! I do find it ironic that JTR did his thing about 5 or 10 years before what would have been significantly improved crime scene investigation....I think at least...

            Greg

            Comment

            • #7
              Originally posted by GregBaron View Post
              Not sure about your air example Bob but I get your point. I think you are right and I'm not attempting to blame. I just wonder if it was considered and I guess the answer is no. I'm still a bit surprised about not seeing the value of photography but again, as you said, time and place is everything........I believe Conan Doyle was publishing his detective stories about this time and of course Edgar Poe invented detective fiction some fifty years prior....perhaps if the cops read a bit more fiction they might have improved their deduction skills? Grasping huh...! I do find it ironic that JTR did his thing about 5 or 10 years before what would have been significantly improved crime scene investigation....I think at least...

              Greg
              Possibly but remember that even today with all our advances in forensics most serial killers are caught by accident.

              If you think the air thing is unlikely go back to 1920 and try and convince people of the DNA thing!

              Comment

              • #8
                If the Ripper killings were to happen today, in the same places, I'm quite sure Jack would be caught in fairly short order. Not sure how many victims he would claim, but they would have his prints and his DNA and by the time he got to Mitre Square (if not before) his photograph, as I was briefly detained by police there in 2008 for shooting video in proximity to security cameras.

                And hey, by the way, I just realized I have passed 500 posts. I am a Sergeant now!

                Comment

                • #9
                  What about the society at that time? I mean--those were some pretty gruesome pics, and wouldn't shock the public? Ironic is that details of the autopsies were carried in the papers while today the papers wouldn't probably even publish it.


                  Congrats Kensei! First pints on me...just as long as you are not on duty!

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    I think after Warrens fiasco with the bloodhounds new fangled tequniques would have been frowned apon.

                    As for the photographs I am sure there are more than a few that have just not survived to the present day (or have not been discovered yet).
                    My opinion is all I have to offer here,

                    Dave.

                    Smilies are canned laughter.

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      And the lack of preservation of the Lusk kidney (to the present day) frustrates me.....although it is arguable that DNA recovery would not have been possible.
                      My opinion is all I have to offer here,

                      Dave.

                      Smilies are canned laughter.

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        Originally posted by GregBaron View Post
                        I'm assuming this has been discussed and I just haven't seen it...or at least
                        I haven't seen much. Maybe one of you has a simple answer. My question is:
                        Why no attempts at fingerprinting or more photography? I realize fingerprinting was in its infancy but it did exist and photography, at least from the daguerrotype onwards, had been around about 50 years or so......was it budgetary, incompetence, unlikely to yield results, not enough manpower? etc..etc.... There must be a simple explanation but think if we had detailed photographs of the crime scenes and perhaps fingerprints of most of the police suspects..!..... oh how with modern techniques we could analyze to our hearts content.......mind you, I'm not saying the crime could or would be solved but it sure couldn't hurt....can someone enlighten me...?

                        Thanks,

                        Greg
                        The first paper on Dactylgraphy was published in 1886 by a cousin of Darwin's. The first use in a criminal proceeding is 6 years later in Argentina. Dave
                        We are all born cute as a button and dumb as rocks. We grow out of cute fast!

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