The subject of Jack's "anatomical knowledge"

[Natalie Severn]

Chapter 1x The Criminal A Polish Jew

Ben,
I dont know whether its so much ME "pretending not to understand"- as you put it --or YOU not understanding the "implication" of Anderson"s statement.Is that possibly too subtle a concept for you?

When Anderson states,in his autobiography,quite clearly,

"and the conclusion we came to was that he and his people were certain low-class Polish Jews"

that is exactly the CONSEQUENCE of the house to house searches that took place in October 1888.Anderson is telling us so himself.

Now if he came to that decision later than that OK, OK!!!BUT IT IS NOT WHAT IS IMPLIED! He did not need to add the qualifier "immediately"---just look how it would have read:

"and the conclusion we IMMEDIATELY came to was that he and his people were certain low-class Polish Jews"

....talk about it looking like it was a "rush to judgment" if he had!

Anyway,I take him at his word here thats what he said, thats what he meant,in my opinion.


Now,and this is just as important, can you give me the detail on the other "house to house search" he meant and which took place as he writes,DURING MY ABSENCE ABROAD?

Anderson was "absent abroad from the first week of September1888 until mid October 1888.

Best Wishes
Norma

[Ben]

Hi Norma,

The entire flow of the paragraph from TLYOML suggests that AS A RESULT OF THE HOUSE TO HOUSE SEARCH the conclusion Anderson reached was etc etc.

"As a result of" does not mean "immediately after", unless the latter is specified.

Are you sure you're not just pretending that you don't understand the obvious distinction?

There's no evidence that the police had even heard of Kosminski in November 1888, and the alleged knife threat on his sister (which may have brought him police attention in the first place) may not even have occured until quite some time after that date. I think you'll find, in addition, that the police continued to investigate individual residences well after Anderson's return from abroad.

Best regards,
Ben

[Trevor Marriott]

Dave !

Might we ask for the same?

i have been applying just that but you sadly are one whose head is so far up your backside and therfore not capable of sensible reasoning and the appliance of common sense.

That bit is just so far off the mark you're nearly impossible to comprehend.
The cavity of a dead person will not fill with blood until AFTER the organs are cut. Not before.

That statment above just confirms my comments above. Of course the abdomen will fill with blood the victims had a long blade knife inserted in their abdomens and drawn up that in itself will cut organs and blood vessels etc causing a massive bleed.

[Ribbons and Bows]

Brutal killings such as those attributed to the Ripper would lead to the murderer stumbling across organs whether he was searching for them or not. The lacerations he makes give fairly easy access to the kidneys and uterus and whatnot, and it is my opinion that no extensive anatomical knowledge, if any, would be required for such feats.

Edit: Furthermore, the timing lines up with the organs removed. The uterus is the first canonical organ removed and is located along the midline of the abdomen where the MO of the Ripper would likely hit considering the violent slashing coupled with genital mutilation. Considering the Ripper moved slightly up the torso as killing progressed due to increased violence, reaching the kidneys would be simple, especially if you knick the uterus as was the case.

[Natalie Severn]

Anderson"s words:

..........During my absence abroad the Police had made a house-to house search for him,investigating the case of every man in the district whose circumstances were such that he could go and come and get rid of his blood-stains in secret.And the conclusion we came to was that he and his people were certain low class Polish Jews; for it is a remarkable fact that people of that class in the East End will not give up one of their number to Gentile justice"



Ben,
The entire flow of the paragraph from TLYOML suggests that AS A RESULT OF THE HOUSE TO HOUSE SEARCH the conclusion Anderson reached was etc etc .

No mention whatever that he took "SOME TIME" to reach his decision---quite the contrary, it was a DIRECT RESULT of these house to house searches .Nothing could be clearer.
Best

Norma

BTW These house to house searches took place just before his return from abroad in October.

[DaveMc]

There should be if common sense is applied by posters who should make a thorough assessment and evaluation of all the facts in unbiased fashion.

I will still stand by my statement that there is no evidence to show the killer removed the organs from Chapman and Eddowes at the crime scene. There is however strong circumstantial evidence to show he did not

Might we ask for the same?

How can you be confused by the word "Absent" in the Kelly report.
It only means one thing, "not there"
And it was Dr. Bond that said so.

Then in one breath you're relying on Bond's opinion regarding skill,
in another breath you're denying his conclusion on the sexuality.
Bond writes:
The character of the mutilations indicate that the man may be in a condition sexually, that may be called satyriasis. It is of course possible that the Homicidal impulse may have developed from a revengeful or brooding condition of the mind, or that Religious Mania may have been the original disease, but I do not think either hypothesis is likely.

Your logic just leaps from tree to tree after whichever banana you fancy.

Try doing it in the dark with an abdomen filled with blood and difficulty in finding and gripping organs

That bit is just so far off the mark you're nearly impossible to comprehend.
The cavity of a dead person will not fill with blood until AFTER the organs are cut. Not before.

A little common sense on your part as well would be welcomed.

[Ben]

Hi Norma,

In plain English what Anderson is saying in this one paragraph that contains his "theory" is that the idea came to him after he came from abroad

Some time after he came back from abroad...

In plain English, Anderson was saying that the police conducted house-to-house inquiries in his absence, and the conclusion he came to (presumably as a result of those inquiries) was that the killer was a low-class Jew. Never, at any stage, did he state when he began to formulate this theory. The fact that the house-to-house inquiries occured "immediately" prior to his return doesn't permit us to conclude that Anderson formulated a theory as a result of these searches "immediately" after returning.

If any one official influenced the other, then it's far more likely that Anderson was impressed by Bond's medical findings and "profile", but it doesn't make sense the other way round. You just end up accusing both men of falsifying reports and criminal negligence on a wholly illogical premise.

Best regards,
Ben

[DVV]

With all due respect, post # 260 enlightens more Trevor's mind than Jack's.

Amitiés,
David

[ditlew]

Hi Trevor,

i would suggest you read post 260 on here may make you change your mind.

I disagree.

Best Regards,
Ditlew

[DVV]

That doesnt mean to say just because skin was cut it was for the purpose you suggest. again conjecture. i only refer to Chapman. what happened to the flaps os sking being cut in Mitre Square then.

I very well understand the problem you have with the method employed by the killer to open Mary's abdomen, Trevor.
Indeed, it was identical to that of the Hanbury Street ripper.

Amitiés,
David

[Trevor Marriott]

OK ....I"ll hand it over to you Trev!

Thank you for you kind support

[Natalie Severn]

Hunters analysis regarding the medical issues is based on his experiences of cutting up wild animals, Thats a long way from cutting up and eviscerating organs from humans who are lying in dark locations

As i have said before i have a statment from a master butcher who started off working in a slaughterhouse and he confirms the degree of difficulty involved in these removals being carried out by a butcher given the conditions.

I think i will stick with him and leave Hunter AKA "Buffalo Bill" to his opinions

OK ....I"ll hand it over to you Trev!

[Trevor Marriott]

In Hanbury Street and Miller's Court, 3 flaps of skin have been detached to gain access to the internal organs.

Amitiés,
David

That doesnt mean to say just because skin was cut it was for the purpose you suggest. again conjecture. i only refer to Chapman. what happened to the flaps os skin being cut in Mitre Square then.

I think you should also consider that if the organs were removed at the mortuary whoever did it may have made cuts and wounds which would have showed up at the post mortem and would automatically be connected to the killer.

[Natalie Severn]

[QUOTE]=Ben;124468]Hi Norma,

I'm stuggling to understand what you think "offsets" the medical notes of Dr. Bond. We have no proof whatsoever that Robert Anderson had already subscribed to the "low class Jew" theory by November 1888. All we learn from his 1910 Blackwoods article is that at some point subsequent to his return from abroad, he came to that conclusion. On what evidence do you base your assumption that he formed the theory immediately upon his return?


Hi BEN:


Not his Blackwoods article Ben but Anderson"s autobiography,The Lighter Years of My Official Life"

See the second paragraph down beginning "One did not need be a Sherlock Holmes......
..........During my absence abroad the Police had made a house-to house search for him,investigating the case of every man in the district whose circumstances were such that he could go and come and get rid of his blood-stains in secret.And the conclusion we came to was that he and his people were certain low class Polish Jews; for it is a remarkable fact that people of that class in the East End will not give up one of their number to Gentile justice"
In plain English what Anderson is saying in this one paragraph that contains his "theory" is that the idea came to him after he came from abroad and read the report of the house to house search which took place by police IMMEDIATELY PRIOR TO HIS RETURN from his holiday in mid October 1888.

Two weeks later what do we have?

A "profile" of the killer by Dr Bond suggesting a sort of hermetically sealed "canon" of victims , the "type of man " the ripper was,-who protected him,and how etc

no need to look further really,all signed, sealed and delivered with the help of the remarkable Dr Bond [no relation to James Bond ].

[DVV]

In Hanbury Street and Miller's Court, 3 flaps of skin have been detached to gain access to the internal organs.

Amitiés,
David