The subject of Jack's "anatomical knowledge"

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks Rob,
Well it may help to explain where the thug theory came from ,but Dr Phillips didnt really talk about a "thug theory".The Tourniquet theory is I think the theory he is said to have considered.They may be similar ofcourse.

I am not saying that Dr Bond was the only one who made mistakes.He was,ofcourse, a very highly qualified man.
And its difficult to know exactly what was going on in his head at the time.Was it a case of not wanting to argue with such a high flying and persuasive policeman or was it more to do with actually having been won over to a different point of view by the police argument and believing that view to be correct ?
I think I know the answer Dr Bond would have given,but then again -he could have been "in denial".
Best
Norma

[Toofew]

2. All the circumstances surrounding the murders lead me to form the opinion that the women must have been lying down when murdered and in every case the throat was first cut.

Trevor, doesn't the above put paid to your theory of how the intestines ended up on or above the shoulders of Chapman & Eddowes? While there may some slight recoil affect if the skin is cut, surely the intestines don't pop out like a Jack in the Box.

Best,

Billy

[claire]

Just a tiny note regarding the darker bruise observed on the neck (face?) than was reported, and I'm quite sure this is fairly common knowledge, but might be worth bearing in mind...it would have been possible for the bruise to have darkened postmortem (such contusions can continue to darken for around 18 hours postmortem, and sometimes longer in women, obese individuals, or those suffering alcoholism [cf. di Maio and di Maio, Forensic Pathology--Google it if you must but please be warned that some of the pictures are disturbing]). Hence, without any real fault on his part, Bond may not have observed the depth of the contusion (given tests [or lack of same] available at the time). It is also possible that the mortuary assistant observed pm lividity, of course.

Just thoughts...sorry to intrude

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks Claire,it makes sense that.I thought the wound would have been more likely to fade at first but when I read about William Randall"s finding I wondered if such marks may actually become more pronounced for some time after death.
Best
Norma

[Trevor Marriott]

Trevor, doesn't the above put paid to your theory of how the intestines ended up on or above the shoulders of Chapman & Eddowes? While there may some slight recoil affect if the skin is cut, surely the intestines don't pop out like a Jack in the Box.

Best,

Billy

Wherever the intestines finished up or how they got there still doesnt prove the killer removed the organs at the scene.

And it isnt clear exactly how much of the intestines were oustide the abdominal cavity. Dont forget one of he wounds went up as far as the breast bone. Thats near to the shoulder area if you want to split hairs !!

Read the postings i made earlier in this thread regarding the chapman murder.

[Toofew]

Wherever the intestines finished up or how they got there still doesnt prove the killer removed the organs at the scene.

And it isnt clear exactly how much of the intestines were oustide the abdominal cavity. Dont forget one of he wounds went up as far as the breast bone. Thats near to the shoulder area if you want to split hairs !!

Read the postings i made earlier in this thread regarding the chapman murder.

Trevor, the theory that the organs were removed at a different location is interesting. However, propping that theory up with intestines "recoiling" as you have several times stated on this forum doesn't hold water. Dodging that fact by saying that the cut was up to the sternum still doesn't obliterate gravity, i.e., they may extend beyond the abdominal wall but I don't see any way they ended up at the shoulder of the victim unless decomposition gases played a major role such as a drowning victim.

Best,

Billy

[Hunter]

Is Foster's drawing a hoax?

2 feet of intestines don't cut themselves and pop out to land between Kate's left arm and body.

[Toofew]

Regarding medical / anatomical knowledge....based upon my limited knowledge of anatomy, the abdominal wall is a then muscle layer. From what I remember of the medical reports, no one mentioned that the intestines were cut. My thoughts are that the killer had some kind of experience for that fact alone; whether butcher, hunter (I've see family & friends clean hogs, squirrels & rabbits), or someone with medical knowledge. Granted, that doesn't narrow the field one whit but...

Be good,

Billy

[Toofew]

Is Foster's drawing a hoax?

2 feet of intestines don't cut themselves and pop out to land between Kate's left arm and body.

Hunter, don't forget the Jack in the Box syndrome

Best of wishes.

Billy

[DVV]

Hi Toofew,

there were 2 feet of intestines cut, and placed between her arm and her body.
As the sketch shows, btw.

Amitiés,
David

[Toofew]

Hi Toofew,

there were 2 feet of intestines cut, and placed between her arm and her body.
As the sketch shows, btw.

Amitiés,
David

Mon ami (which exhausts my knowledge of French),

Were the intestines cut at the ends or in half? The reason I'm asking is if the Ripper was truly uninformed about anatomy, the intestines would be cut in half...sorry, this is a graphic (verbally) image but stick the knife in hilt deep and pulll upward.

Good night as you should be six or seven hours ahead of me....

Billy

[Ben]

Is this what you are calling "old hat" Ben?

No, Norma.

I have no trouble accepting that some modern commentators may be critical of Bond, but this view of him as the errant doctor of the bunch is in danger of mutating into a ripperological factoid, and I feel a few crucial realities should be addressed to prevent that from happening. For example, the idea that Dr. Bond's view of the Mylett case constituted the controversial minority does not stand up to scrutiny. As Debs and Rob have pointed out, one of the pro-murder doctors involved in the Mylett case made claims that could be proven false, which simply isn't true of Bond.

Was it a case of not wanting to argue with such a high flying and persuasive policeman or was it more to do with actually having been won over to a different point of view by the police argument and believing that view to be correct ?

I think it was more a case of Bond being "won over" by the weight of medical evidence.

From what I remember of the medical reports, no one mentioned that the intestines were cut. My thoughts are that the killer had some kind of experience for that fact alone

Hi Billy - No, I don't think there has ever been any suggestion that an absence of cuts to the intestines is indicative of medical knowledge. There's certainly nothing remotely difficult about piercing the flesh of the abdomen without injury to the "insides".

The reason I'm asking is if the Ripper was truly uninformed about anatomy, the intestines would be cut in half

I can assure you that this isn't the case at all.

All the best,
Ben

[DVV]

Mon ami (which exhausts my knowledge of French),

Were the intestines cut at the ends or in half? The reason I'm asking is if the Ripper was truly uninformed about anatomy, the intestines would be cut in half...sorry, this is a graphic (verbally) image but stick the knife in hilt deep and pulll upward.

Good night as you should be six or seven hours ahead of me....

Billy

Merci Billy!

...cut at the ends.

Amitiés,
David

[Toofew]

<snip>

Hi Billy - No, I don't think there has ever been any suggestion that an absence of cuts to the intestines is indicative of medical knowledge. There's certainly nothing remotely difficult about piercing the flesh of the abdomen without injury to the "insides".



I can assure you that this isn't the case at all.

All the best,
Ben

No Ben. With all respects, unless you have done it, cutting shallow enough to cut the wall without cutting the intestines is not that easy. I am going back to my youth mind you but I do remember my uncles (who had killed and prepared hundreds of hogs in their lifetimes) be extremely careful with the knife. Granted they were doing it for food but still...

Be good,

Billy

[Ben]

With reciprocal respect, Billy, it simply isn't the case that the intestines would be cut in half (?) if an amateur was responsible for opening the abdominal cavity. Even when dealing with a rabbit, it is incredibly easy for an amateur to pierce the skin and flesh without severing the intestines, and we humans are made of tougher stuff that that. It's rather a moot point here, in any case, since we know they suffered injury and evisceration in the case of Eddowes. Nothing remotely indicative of anatomical knowledge beyond that of a layman as far as the intestines go.

All the best,
Ben