Hand Writing Experts

[chudmuskett]

I'm sorry that is not a fact - that is nonsense. Look at all the new evidence that has been uncovered in the last 30 years. From crime scene photographs to complete victim backgrounds. It seems that every day new items are being discovered and it is mainly thanks to this site and others like it.

Just because we haven't reached a conclusion doesn't mean we are travelling in circles - it might mean that the road is very long and we haven't reached the end yet.

Every program I see and every book I read might as well be a copy of the last. I think Im losing my faith guys

[Jeff Leahy]

Unfortunately making good TV either takes lots of time or lots of money. At present, at least in the UK advertising revenues are very low so noone has any money. Add to that most Broadcasters desire for sensational quick answers and little care for the facts but care for headlines and viewing figures..

And it aint easy to get stuff done.

Its just as hard getting a book published at present. And again there is little money in writing books.

Thank god there are a few people who care enough to try and get stuff correct. There are some great books out there..Have you read the 'FACTS'? by Paul Begg or 'Scotland Yard investigates' by Evans and Rumblow?

Dont give up yet there is still lots to discover. The conference DVD will be available in NTSC very soon.

Pirate

PS Its unlikely that any of the letters were written by JtR. There is a book about them called 'Letters From Hell' Evans /Skinner

PS PS . I hope you and your brother got home safely Bob?

[Simon Wood]

A Cautionary Tale

Hi All,

In the 1980s the world was stunned by the appearance of the Hitler Diaries. Bought by Der Stern, the German magazine immediately got handwriting experts to compare the diaries with copies of material found by Gerd Heidemann, one of its investigative reporters, in the German Federal Archives at Koblenz. The experts unanimously pronounced the handwriting as identical and Der Stern's enthusiasm sky-rocketed.

Ultimately, of course, the diaries were exposed as fakes perpetrated by Konrad Kujau, a petty criminal specializing in forgery. He began his career by taking genuine German wartime memorabilia and adding the names of important high-ranking Nazis to increase their value. In the diary episode he had been aided by Gerd Heidemann of Der Stern.

The really interesting thing was how the handwriting experts had been so thoroughly fooled. In comparing the handwriting in the diaries to the handwriting found in letters by Hitler, the experts pronounced it identical because the letters they had used for comparison turned out to be previous forgeries by Kujau.

Regards,

Simon

[mklhawley]

Handwriting Analysis Has A Place

Hi all,

Handwriting analysis (I am not talking about graphology) does have a place in criminal investigations and the most recent research supports its effectiveness, but not necessarily as a tool to confirm guilt but to rule a person out as a possible author. In view of this, handwriting analysis should still be used on Tumblety's handwriting, but only to eliminate him as a possible author of the From Hell letter. According to The New York World newspaper article of November 26, 1888, Scotland Yard authorities telegraphed San Francisco to get copies of writings from Tumblety for this very reason, “Only a few days ago the London Chief of Police telegraphed to San Francisco requesting that specimens of Twomblety's handwriting in possession of the Hibernia bank there be forwarded to him.”

Does handwriting analysis eliminate the possibility that Tumblety was the author of the From Hell letter? There are too many consistencies to say no.

Sincerely,

Mike

[Dave James]

Hi All,
This may or not be relevant, in a couple of the early books on JtR a graphologist, C M McLeod was quoted on the 'From hell' letters.

A ‘Ripper’ Handwriting Analysis
Professor F. E. Camps' article More About `Jack the Ripper' in the February issue promoted considerable discussion by correspondence the most interesting of which was a Canadian graphologist's suggestion of an analysis of the letter specimens in Professor Camps' article. MANY doubt that the so-called Jack the Ripper atrocities were committed by one person. To a graphologist, it appears most unlikely that all the Jack the Ripper letters were written by the same hand. As a trained handwriting analyst, I was struck by the essential dissimilarities in the two specimens reproduced in the February issue of The Criminologist. In my opinion, they are the efforts of two persons having similar perversions but important personality differences. Both specimens reveal a propensity to cruelly perverted sexuality to a degree that even the most casual amateur graphologist could hardly mistake. The use of the word `persons' is deliberate. Contrary to popular belief, it is completely impossible to ascertain the sex of a writer from a script. It is, however, entirely possible to discern his or her attitudes towards sex and sexual violence. The old-fashioned school of handwriting analysis purported to find meaning in each individual stroke of a letter, and to hold the same meaning true for every specimen in which that trait appeared. …

Pasted from <http://www.newcriminologist.com/article.asp?nid=538>

Has anyone got a copy of the full article that could be posted? I've seen references to this analysis in a couple of early JtR books, but no later author has followed it up. From my understanding of what I've seen of this, it doesn't name name names, but rather profiles a type of person, and going by the date, long before the FBI were profiling.
All the best
Dave

[mklhawley]

Hi All,
This may or not be relevant, in a couple of the early books on JtR a graphologist, C M McLeod was quoted on the 'From hell' letters.

A ‘Ripper’ Handwriting Analysis
Professor F. E. Camps' article More About `Jack the Ripper' in the February issue promoted considerable discussion by correspondence the most interesting of which was a Canadian graphologist's suggestion of an analysis of the letter specimens in Professor Camps' article. MANY doubt that the so-called Jack the Ripper atrocities were committed by one person. To a graphologist, it appears most unlikely that all the Jack the Ripper letters were written by the same hand. As a trained handwriting analyst, I was struck by the essential dissimilarities in the two specimens reproduced in the February issue of The Criminologist. In my opinion, they are the efforts of two persons having similar perversions but important personality differences. Both specimens reveal a propensity to cruelly perverted sexuality to a degree that even the most casual amateur graphologist could hardly mistake. The use of the word `persons' is deliberate. Contrary to popular belief, it is completely impossible to ascertain the sex of a writer from a script. It is, however, entirely possible to discern his or her attitudes towards sex and sexual violence. The old-fashioned school of handwriting analysis purported to find meaning in each individual stroke of a letter, and to hold the same meaning true for every specimen in which that trait appeared. …

Pasted from <http://www.newcriminologist.com/article.asp?nid=538>

Has anyone got a copy of the full article that could be posted? I've seen references to this analysis in a couple of early JtR books, but no later author has followed it up. From my understanding of what I've seen of this, it doesn't name name names, but rather profiles a type of person, and going by the date, long before the FBI were profiling.
All the best
Dave

Hi Dave,

This is why a differentiate graphology and forensic handwriting analysis. I believe the former assumes too much about human nature, while the latter focuses upon the handwriting itself.

Sincerely,

Mike

[Bob Hinton]

PS PS . I hope you and your brother got home safely Bob?

Just about, having avoided all the **** ups on the M4. It was great to meet you at last, Andrew certainly had a good time!

[Bob Hinton]

Interesting

Hi All,



The really interesting thing was how the handwriting experts had been so thoroughly fooled. In comparing the handwriting in the diaries to the handwriting found in letters by Hitler, the experts pronounced it identical because the letters they had used for comparison turned out to be previous forgeries by Kujau.

Regards,

Simon

But technically they were correct, both handwriting samples were by the same hand!

[Bob Hinton]

I would be very interested to see the entire article from the New York World of November 26th.

[mklhawley]

I would be very interested to see the entire article from the New York World of November 26th.

Chris has a thread on it under Tumblety, but here it is.


Articles from the New York World

26 November 1888

HE IS A MYSTERY TO ALL
WHO AND WHAT IS "DR" TWOMBLETY, THE WHITECHAPEL SUSPECT?

Among the scores of men arrested by the London police, suspected of having had something to do with the Whitechapel horrors, only one is still regarded with suspicion. He is said to be an American and his name has come over the cables as Kumberty, Twomberty and Tumberty, but the description which accompanied the various names was the same all the time, and it told of a man who, once seen, was not likely to be forgotten. He is known from one end of the country to the other, but, strange to say, while scores of people can give the most minute particulars as to his dress, carriage and personal appearance, from the color of his scarf to the size of his boot, no one appears to have the least idea of his home life, his business, his associates or his friends.
Men who have known him by sight for thirty years never saw him greet any one as a friend, never saw him in company with any one, and never knew just what his business was. It seems impossible that a man whose appearance is so striking as to attract universal attention on a crowded street should be able to throw about his movements an air of such impenetrable mystery. He has been seen in almost every city of the country from San Francisco to Bangor, Ma., yet no one knows where he was born, where he was raised, whether he is married or single, childless or with a family, or a hundred other little details which ordinary men are so fond of talking about.
"Dr." Twomblety, for that is the name by which he is known in New York, is a man who evidently has some strong reason for keeping his life buried in profound obscurity. The World a week ago published something of his career in this city.
"I have known Dr. Twomblety by sight for thirty years," said William H Carr, the veteran clerk of the Fifth Avenue Hotel, last night, "and I can tell you absolutely nothing about the man's habits, except what clothes he wore and how he looked. It was along in the fifties when I first saw him. I was then living in Boston, and I believe he lived somewhere in the North End. There was a vague rumor that he had an office somewhere and sold patent medicine, but I never saw any one who knew where the shop was or what he sold. Every one noticed him in those days, as is the case now, on account of his peculiar dressing. He would appear on the street in the most outlandish garments, fancy colored vests, gorgeous jewelry, and flashy coats and trousers.
"When I came to New York early in the sixties I saw the 'doctor' perambulating Broadway with his enormous greyhound following after him. In those days he used to wear a velvet coat, a blood red tie, a flowered vest, white trousers and flashy gloves, and he always carried a riding whip in his hand. He came into the Fifth Avenue Hotel often and would walk through the lobby in pompous style, with his chest thrown out and his shoulders well squared; but I never in my life saw him speak to any one, I never saw him accompanied by a friend and I never knew him to inquire for any one. I have often speculated about his means of living. I never saw any one who could tell anything about him, though hundreds of people knew his name and had seen him in cities all over the country. I have not seen him for several years and the last time he came into the hotel I noticed that he was aging rapidly. He is a singular character."
"Did you ever hear that he had an aversion to women?" Mr. Carr was asked.
"I heard several stories about that," he replied, "and the general impression among those who knew about his habits was that he avoided women. I never heard of his offering them any violence, and, indeed, he was the very last man I would think likely to be guilty of such crimes as those in Whitechapel."
Col. James L. Sothern, of Chicago, the well known lawyer, was talking to a group of friends in the Hoffman House when some one mentioned Twomblety's name. "I have met that fellow all over America and Europe," said Col. Sothern. "The first time I saw him was in London. It was along about 1870, I believe, and he was dressed up in the most startling fashion. I never saw anything quite equal to it. He had an enormous Russian shako on his head, an overcoat, the front of which was covered with decorations; earrings in his ears and by his side a very black negro fantastically got up in a parti colored dress that appeared to be a blending of the flags of all nations. A great crowd followed him, but he didn't appear to notice them. I saw him afterwards in San Francisco, and I have seen him a hundred times in Chicago. Once I met him in Cincinnati parading through the Burnet House, and I asked the clerk who he was. He told me the fellow's name was Twomblety, but he said he nothing about him, except that he didn't live there, and appeared to know no one. He said that he was kind of patent medicine man, he believed, who sold some off color medicine."
James Pryor, the detective of the Fifth Avenue Hotel, appeared to know more of the mysterious Twomblety than any one else. "It must be about twenty years ago since I first saw him," said Pryor, "and I can see him now just like he was then. He had an army officer's cap, a big cape and light colored trousers. He was a dandy then, I tell you. You couldn't find a finer made man in this town. He had a big black mustache, one of the backing brush kind, black eyes, a good complexion, and a walk like he had just been elected Alderman. He had a kind of a fake medicine shop down on Grand Street, where he sold his patent medicine. They chased him away from there and he opened up his place in Jersey City. I don't know how he made his money, but he always appeared to have plenty of it.
"Wherever he went he was followed by a thickset young man who kept about twenty paces behind him. They never spoke to each other; and when the 'doctor' would come into the hotel his shadow would lounge in after him. They got to telling tough stories about the 'doctor,' and the guests complained about him - the gentlemen, I mean - and said they didn't care to have him so near them, so I determined to bounce him. I remember that day very well, because I fired another fellow just before I did the 'doctor' and what happened afterwards made me remember that other fellow.
"The other chap was a wild faced little fellow, who used to be 'strung up' by the Republican National Committee in the daytime. They would get him to make speeches for them, and tell him they were going to give him a consulship. I said to them, 'You had better let that fellow alone. He will hurt somebody one day.' One morning I went into the reading room and there he was writing a speech in his bare feet. He had taken his shoes off and thrown them aside. I had a tough time getting him out, because he didn't want to go. The little fellow's name was Guiteau, and three months afterwards he killed President Garfield.
"But I never had that trouble with the 'doctor.' He was very quiet and as soon as he tumbled to the fact that I knew him he went right out. I saw him a year afterwards passing the hotel. He never came in, though. I have spent the best part of twenty years on Broadway and I have seen a great many curious characters, but Twomblety is one of the oddest fish I ever saw. He always had plenty of money, he appeared to dress regardless of expense and paid his bills, but I never could find out where the money came from or where the fellow lived."
"Do you think he is the Whitechapel murderer?"
"I certainly do not," the detective replied emphatically. "If I were to search New York for a man less likely to be guilty than the 'doctor' I wouldn't find him. Why, he hasn't the nerve of a chicken. He just had enough nerve to put some molasses and water together and label it a medicine - the biggest nerve being in the label - and sell it."
"Did he have an antipathy for women?"
"He seemed indifferent to them. I never saw him in all his walks up and down Broadway look at a woman. He never appeared to care for them, and many a time I have seen women look after him, for he was a very handsome fellow. He had the smallest hand and foot I ever saw. During the later years of his residence here he wore fewer diamonds and appeared to be getting a little toned down in his dress. He used to go abroad often and what he went for nobody ever knew. I never heard the sound of his voice in all the years I saw him."
However impressed with the belief in the 'doctor's' harmlessness those to whom he was a familiar figure here may be, the London police evidently do not share it. Although nothing tangible was produced connecting the eccentric wanderer with the Whitechapel crimes, the English authorities have evidently not abandoned their suspicions. Only a few days ago the London Chief of Police telegraphed to San Francisco requesting that specimens of Twomblety's handwriting in possession of the Hibernia bank there be forwarded to him. When these are compared with the chirography of "Jack the Ripper" another chapter may be added to the life story of this man of mystery.

[Suzi]

Just about, having avoided all the **** ups on the M4. It was great to meet you at last, Andrew certainly had a good time!

He he did the lovely Andrew come along as 'chaperone' ?...There are ALWAYS **** ups on the M4 !! Glad you all got on OK!