What remained consistent through the C5?

[perrymason]

Hello,

It is a sad statement that when these murders were occurring the women most at risk, apparently very poor prostitutes, had to stay out to make money to eat or sleep indoors.

Stan touched on something earlier, and I admit I had hoped someone would, that what we all believe to be the criteria for Jack The Rippers selections, very poor full or part-time whores who are out on the streets after midnight, might just be a result of what he had to deal within the 10 or 11 days of each month that he went out to kill. What if he was a sailor for example, and only docking in the East End and on shore leave for those few days per month? If he was though, then there was no reason he couldn't or wouldn't kill during the evening before midnight. But he doesn't.

I believe the consistency of Ripper kills, using the day of the month criteria and time of night, may be linked to his lifestyle or occupation, like its not just a randomly occurring coincidence.

Best regards all.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Mike,

I believe the consistency of Ripper kills, using the day of the month criteria and time of night, may be linked to his lifestyle or occupation

If there is a pattern there, might it not rather be linked more strongly to his victims' lifestyles and occupations? Or to what the rest of the world was doing between killings?

[perrymason]

Hi Mike,If there is a pattern there, might it not rather be linked more strongly to his victims' lifestyles and occupations? Or to what the rest of the world was doing between killings?

Hi Sam,

Of course Sam, thats the way this has been looked at from the moment they thought they had a serial on their hands, that he goes out after midnight because thats when the street whores he chooses are gathered. The really poor ones. Makes sense.

I wonder though if his killing on only certain days of the month, and being quiet the balance of the month, is explained by that conjecture.

I would think that the desperately poor would not be able to stay off the streets very long after a Ripper Kill, they were forced to deal with the fear, surely some couldn't have survived without "working" after an early in the month month kill until they might feel safe going out again.

So why then would he have to wait from a kill before the 10th, to the 29th, 30th or 31st? Wouldn't some really desperate ones have to work regardless? Are'nt they his actual target supposedly? So why wait until months end....because by killing early in the month he virtually assures himself that only the weakest and poorest would be out for the next few weeks.

My best regards Sam.

[JSchmidt]

Though I'm sad to say it, much of what we have about a pattern is highly speculative. To establish a meaningful pattern we would need more occassions, especially failed attempts and all.
Maybe he did not manage to kill his potential victims during the three weeks but wasn't caught, maybe he had social obligations that kept him in et cetera.
There may not be a pattern and if there is it might be wholly random, dictated by singular happenings that do not reflect the occupation or social status of the murderer.

[perrymason]

Hi JS,

Of course you may be right, there may be no pattern to speak of, but I cant help thinking that no Ripper attributed killing or foiled attack from the 9th to the 30th might be important.

In 4 consecutive months, 3 have that "dates pattern", and the 4th, October, has no killings by him at all.

Again, it may mean nothing, but its consistent during the months he does kill, and leaves him dormant from at least from the 9th to the 30th in each of the 3 months.

Not that I would associate this killing with Jack, but a Torso from a woman killed earlier turns up October 2nd or 3rd. Who knows...maybe that was his October offering. But taking almost the exact same days off during kill months seems interesting to me.

My best regards.

[sdreid]

I'd say that Sept. 30 was what counted for the SE 30 through OC 09 frame - right on schedule if the "pattern" is really there.

[sdreid]

The three frames:

Last day of month, AU 31, through SE 09 (AU 31 & SE 08) - two murders
Last day of month, SE 30, through OC 09 (SE 30) - two murders
Last day of month, OC 31, through NO 09 (NO 09) - one murder

[perrymason]

The three frames:

Last day of month, AU 31, through SE 09 (AU 31 & SE 08) - two murders
Last day of month, SE 30, through OC 09 (SE 30) - two murders
Last day of month, OC 31, through NO 09 (NO 09) - one murder

Thats good Stan, even more interesting to put it in that context. Perhaps what we should be wondering is where was the second murder that should have been in the Third Frame? Maybe Sarah Lewis's scare was a foiled attempt.

Thanks for exploring the idea, I appreciate that Stan.

Best regards.

[sdreid]

Hi Michael,

To me, the "missed date" looks like it should have been October 31 if anything.

Though, if you figure in the weekend business, it might be November 2 or so.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Mike,

So why then would he have to wait from a kill before the 10th, to the 29th, 30th or 31st?

Forgive me for indulging in speculation...

Perhaps the last couple of weeks of one month and the first couple of weeks of the next brought the most vulnerable out onto the streets - debts to pay, rent to find, allowances from spouses or grants from charities and churches having run out etc. Perhaps the more employable were better placed to occupy the beds during these weeks, having more ready cash. Perhaps the more solvent were apt to stay out longer and in greater numbers, rendering the streets even less safe for Jack to work in, such potential witnesses amplifying still further the confounding effect of the increased police presence.

Perhaps there were seasonal factors that gave the more desperate some respite from the streets - for instance, we know that hundreds (if not thousands) of the East End poor would go hop-picking in late Summer and Autumn. Maybe the arrival of goods at the docks (or fish in the ports) during Jack's apparently "fallow" periods meant that there was more casual labour available at the markets. Such episodic influxes of trade may have signaled opportunities for casual prostitutes in the dock areas themselves, at a comparatively safe distance from "Ripper Central".

Who knows? It may be possible to find out, of course, but I don't have the info to hand. Suffice to say that, even if there is significance in these perceived gaps, it may have had many explanations beyond Jack's control, and not simply explicable by his occupation as such.




Edit - I should perhaps add that the above was what I was somewhat cryptically alluding to in my earlier post:

If there is a pattern there, might it not be linked... to what the rest of the world was doing?

[perrymason]

Hi Sam,

I dont think any of those ideas are flawed as to why we might see less activity during the 20 or more days, consecutive days, that he doesn't kill. You know its also possible he had phobias about mid-month dates. Maybe Or that he forgetfully locks his knife in a drawer the same 20 or so days each month, then find it at month end. Or that, as you suggest, he finds work that makes it absolutely impossible to have any nights off during that same 20 or more day period. We know that people hop picking stay out of town for the entire hop season, if Kate and John are any indication of "hoppers", I cant recall reading that any were coming and going each month though....leaving and returning the same days each month.

I just find it kind of hard to believe that the best answers we can come up with for these type of questions is it was "nothing out of the ordinary". Honestly Sam, you or I have no idea if it could be possible this was in fact the killers pattern.

That Fall was anything but ordinary. And someone or some people were killing whores, coincidentally during the same 10 day frame each month, August to November. Maybe its nothing, but the pattern exists.

Im getting the sense that when it comes to questioning anything that has been an accepted theory, it will just be brushed away with.."oh, thats not significant." Like anyone well read on Jack could possibly know at a glance if it was or wasn't potentially important. Seems to me that most the well read people on Jack know about as much who may have done these murders or why, as the novices do. Maybe theres a reason beyond lack of evidence for that. Maybe ideas are good things to explore, if we are looking for answers here, not just propping up a mythological tale.

This was not a business as usual at all in East London Sam. Were not examining common everyday occurances, or the life of an average East Ender when a legendary killer or killers aren't on the loose. If 3 women of 5 Canonicals have their uterus cut out of their bodies, and all are killed by one man, then it is probably an important organ, or action, to the killer. If 4 of the 5 had abdominal mutilations, and one shows that more time was available but no further cuts were made, then you have to question whether this is that same guy. If 4 of 5 are killed outdoors, and only one is killed indoors, its is not an automatic that the same guy just moved indoors. If items or biological material is found around a body in an unexpected position, it doesn't automatically mean they just landed that way.

The wave of the hand dismissal without even considering the propositions just ensures that the status quo will be maintained, and that there is little hope that any of these murders will ever be solved. People like me who like asking why will tire and drift off to study that is interactive...meaning that both sides are open to learning.

And in the case of the Canonicals, as far as history is concerned, thats just 5 individual unsolved murders categorized by investigative opinion, not Jack the Ripper's verified murder spree.

It seems to me that most serial killers are usually the type of people that kill on days that end with a "Y"...like any day of the week, so one that might only kill after midnight and before 6am, and only within the same 10 day period each month should be at the very least, interesting to explore.

Nite all.

[Victor]

The three frames:

Last day of month, AU 31, through SE 09 (AU 31 & SE 08) - two murders
Last day of month, SE 30, through OC 09 (SE 30) - two murders
Last day of month, OC 31, through NO 09 (NO 09) - one murder

Don't forget that you could add Tabram to the start of that:-

Last day of month, JL 31, through AU 09 (AU 07) - one murder

OK, she's not canonical, but it does fit the pattern.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Guys,
When it comes down to the numbers game yours trurly has the original.
THE THIRTY NINE THEORY.
We should remember many serial killers work to a pattern for a whole host of reasons, finding out the key can hepl in apprehending the killer/killers.
The Thirty nine theory consists of many aspects of the case not just the dates, however if we just take the dates we have the following.
Polly Nichols killed the 31st of the 8th month=39
Anne Chapman killed on the 8th september...31+8=39
Stride and Eddowes both killed on the 30th of the 9th month=39
Mary Kelly killed on the 9th day of the month the double event 30+9=39.
also not counting the day of the double event or the date of kellys demise, we have 39 days elapsing.
That is as good a theory as you will get involving actual dates, however if one wants to include Tabram into the series how about the 39 stab wounds recorded, not to mention aged 39.
And what about the letters sent that mentioned the number 39?
And for the suspicious amongst you what day did Barnett leave ?
Answer the 30th the same day of the month as the double event.
And what day was Mjk killed.?
Answer the 9th 30+9 =39
Also mjk was killed on the very same day of a month ie 9th, as Joe and Mary started living together 9th april.
I could go on , but you should get all these coincidences, or are they?
Regards Richard.

[Tom_Wescott]

Although I think Sam's right to offer caution, I find Stan and Michael's stuff here very intriguing.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Sam Flynn]

I just find it kind of hard to believe that the best answers we can come up with for these type of questions is it was "nothing out of the ordinary".

Why shouldn't it be, though? Isn't the "ordinary" what usually happens?

That Fall was anything but ordinary.

That Fall was pretty ordinary. It's a handful of murders that weren't - it pays to keep things in perspective.

Just because we had some extraordinary murders doesn't alter the fact that "ordinary" life continued pretty much as normal. It's not as if the markets closed, the ships were prevented from docking, employees stopped paying their staff, landlords stopped asking for their rent, or the pubs shut early.

Im getting the sense that when it comes to questioning anything that has been an accepted theory, it will just be brushed away with.."oh, thats not significant."

I brush nothing away without giving it a great deal of thought first, Mike. Time was when I'd shoot ideas from the hip, but I guess I've mellowed over the years