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  • some interesting points

    Hi everyone, this is my first post and i am so glad to have joined this forum, as this is beyond doubt the finest website and info board on the web i have come across, and i have done some trawling believe me!

    I have a longstanding facination with the Whitechapel murders and the victorian east end, and I have never really had the chance to chat with fellow (enthusiasts?) followers.

    I have a couple of points I hope will be discussed or at least provide some ideas on the ripper case. If these have been covered in previous posts please forgive me, I have looked thru the archive and havn't found anything relating to these specific points.

    Firstly is the 'package' that was carried by some suspects, and seen by witnesses, about 8-10 inches long, tied with string. I've often wondered what the relevence of this is, and not many authors give much insight into the possibilities of this piece of evidence. Was it the murder weapon (i doubt this one, too fiddly to unwrap and use in the time allowed), maybe it was a cloak to hide bloodstained clothes, or maybe it was even cloths and a water bottle to clean hands of blood and stuff. Any thoughts?

    Which leads me on to my next points, how did the ripper commit such physical atrocities in the dark of Whitechapel? How were precise mutilations to the face of Catherine Eddowes done in the darkest corner of Mitre Square?, yet he contiued to be 'invisible' to the police and public alike, both during the crimes and on his escape from the scene. London is a metropolitan city, both now and in 1888, were the streets so quiet that the ripper could not be noticed by throngs of people still about, tradesmen going to work and the police in large numbers on the beat? I read quite often of 24 hour pubs, going for a rum at 5.30 in the morning!! coming out of premises at 3 or 4 in the morning. Surely there must have been more sightings that were never reoprted to the police.

    He must have very lucky AND/OR as some investigators state; he must have fitted in, or be 'normal' enough not to be noticed by the people on the street, whatever it was he got away with it and I think this is one of the enduring mysteries which I find particularly fascinating.

    Any comments or views would be much appreciated,

    Chris

  • #2
    Hi Chris,

    Are you referring to the man PC Smith saw standing with Stride across from the Berner Street club in Berner Street 25 minutes before her body was discovered? What other men witnessed might you be referring to?
    And you're correct, the casebook is the best website on the net.

    Yours truly,

    Tom Wescott

    Comment


    • #3
      Yes, that the one, and the man in the astrakhan trimmed coat George Hutchinson saw with Mary Kelly, he also said he carried a small package too.

      cheers

      Comment


      • #4
        Hi Chris,

        I believe Mr. Astakhan carried a small cloth container. George Hutchinson, who gave the evidence of Mr. Astrakhan, was eventually discounted by police. The evidence of PC Smith was not, although it is by no means certain he saw Stride with her killer.
        The man PC Smith saw was about 28 years old (Smith was 26 at the time, so about the same age). He was well-dressed and the package he saw appeared to be a parcel 18" by 6" wrapped in newspaper and tied with string. I personally believe that Smith saw Stride with a member of the club who was standing outside handing out complimentary copies of the club's newspaper, Der Arbeter Fraint. The newspaper measured 18" by 6" and in a tall stack would resemble a parcel, particularly since it wasn't folded in the middle as Smith would have been used to seeing more professional newspapers.
        This is just my feeling, because indeed such a man would be expected to be out in front of the club at this time as the sole purpose of these weekend get togethers was to recruit new members from the public. The new issues of the paper were printed that very day.

        Yours truly,

        Tom Wescott

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        • #5
          Thats the first time I have read a detailed explanation of the packages. I bow to your knowledge.

          Any thoughts about the working in the dark question?

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          • #6
            Hi Chris. Thanks, but I don't pretend that my summation is fact. It's just what I feel is likely based on my research, and you asked for a possible explanation. I'm glad you found it of interest.

            Yours truly,

            Tom Wescott

            Comment


            • #7
              Hi Tom,

              I am intrigued by your detailed knowledge of Der Arbeter Fraint, just out of curiosity may I ask the source of this information?

              Rgds
              John

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by John Savage View Post
                Hi Tom,

                I am intrigued by your detailed knowledge of Der Arbeter Fraint, just out of curiosity may I ask the source of this information?

                Rgds
                John
                Hi John,

                I'm sure Tom has more information than I could give you as I understand he has been researching the IWMEC, but in the meantime you can check the Wiki page on the club on this site.

                Best Wishes,
                Hunter
                Best Wishes,
                Hunter
                ____________________________________________

                When evidence is not to be had, theories abound. Even the most plausible of them do not carry conviction- London Times Nov. 10.1888

                Comment


                • #9
                  Invisible people

                  Hi chris, welcome to the boards.

                  I think you hit it on the head with your opening post. JtR was lucky, he appears to havee had one or two (or more) close calls. Nichols probably disturbed by Cross, Chapman possibly disturbed by Cadoche (if you believe that set of timings), Stride disturbed by the return of Louis Diemschutz (if you believe Liz was a JtR victim) and Eddowes - he could have been caught by the police patrols in Mitre Sq.

                  In 1968, Canadian graphologist C M McLeod analysed the Lusk letter and concluded that the ‘From Hell’ letter was genuine. McLeod proposed that the killer could be a coach driver, someone who had a legitimate reason for being anywhere at any time. In other words he was one of the ‘invisible people’, the ones who are seen but not noticed, policemen, doctors etc.

                  This also includes the ordinary 'Joe Bloggs' out and about at all hours in those days. Also, don't forget that his victims were also 'invisible' people.

                  This is far from the mythologised image of top hat, cape, Gladstone bag and bloody hands.

                  All the best
                  Dave
                  When you talk to god it's praying; when god talks to you its schizophrenia! - X-Files

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Dave James View Post
                    In 1968, Canadian graphologist C M McLeod analysed the Lusk letter and concluded that the ‘From Hell’ letter was genuine. Dave
                    Hi Dave,

                    This is definitely beyond me. Unless Mr Graphologist knew who the killer was.

                    Amitiés,
                    David

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by DVV View Post
                      Hi Dave,

                      This is definitely beyond me. Unless Mr Graphologist knew who the killer was.

                      Amitiés,
                      David
                      Hi David,
                      I think it was Mrs Graphologist. Whether or not he/she was correct in assigning the letter to Jack, my point is that Jack was one of the 'invisibles' that are proposed. Someone you wouldn't ordinarily notice because they have a reason to be there or are always around.
                      All the best,
                      Dave
                      When you talk to god it's praying; when god talks to you its schizophrenia! - X-Files

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Cheers Dave, yes I think we tend to forget how really busy the main streets of Whitechapel would have been, i have seen very old late victorian film footage and they are crammed with hansome cabs and horse pulled omnibuses of every type, and the throng of the crowds on the streets would make an easy escape for any villain, of course i assume it would die down at night.
                        Chris

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