Elizabeth Jackson, JTR victim?

[Natalie Severn]

Corey,
The jury is out over whether Jack bothered to do all that.Dont forget he would have had to lift clothes to get at flesh......but would he have given any consideration to their modesty when he quit the scene rapidly to escape detection? Doubtful.Also it has been pointed out that in the case of all , save for Mary Kelly,the victims legs would have given under them ,gone akimbo , as soon as they were "subdued" by the killer through strangulation or throat cutting whichever,so he probably just left his victims like that.Mary Kelly was a bit different but since he was into disembowelling----again,would he have bothered to "rearrange'? limbs?
Best
Norma

[corey123]

Debra,

You should definantly write a book on this case, trust me, I would be amung the first to buy it.

Yours truly

[Debra A]

I've been badgering Debs for ages to do the definitive work.

Rob

You know what I'm like, Rob! I need a research/writing partner to motivate me

[sdreid]

The Book of Lists has her in their Top Ten.

[corey123]

Debra, Pontius,

I think if the breasts HAD been cut off, that would more likely help your theory of her being a victim of the Ripper.

Pontius,

On your suggestion that the killer never really tried to contact the police, sadistic killers would more likely try to contact the family/and or loved ones of the victim to make them relive the murder. Police, I dont believe would have been the target. Unless they had become personally attached to the case. Also, proping the body would have been as much for the police as it was for the on lookers.

Yours truly

p.s. Im of the opinion that the chance of the police or civilians finding pieces of the "Torso murderer(s)" victims would rely rather on luck more than anything. Chance per say. So the fact that 90% or more of her body was found, really does not change anything, not saying she is a victim or the "torso killer(s)". Like you pontius, I am ill prepared in the Torso case besides my knowledge of Patterns in repeating offinders.

[corey123]

Pontius,

Throw out the ripper letters, they are not relavent. But as saying that he didnt try to prop the body, indeed he did. Pulling the legs up, pulling the apron above the waist, and in Chapman and Kellys case, the arm set in the abdomen AFTER mutilation. He did prop the body, that was part of the thrill he got after his murders. The horror was intended, that was the reason for his location of killing(partly) and the arrangment of the corpse.

Jack was a sadistical killer(as Im sure you know) and this is pretty much one of the more evil and unplesent types of serial killers. Take the "black daliah" murder for example. The killer shared some qualities of jack.

He was a sadist. He left Elizabeth Short in a fasion that showed he ment to put her where she was, he left her in a location to bring the maximum reaction. He left her almost right next to a walkway, in two peices, I believe as close as two feet away. The upper body(with the organs protruding and still intact) and the lower body. He cut a smile looking wound on each cheek from the mouth and took chunks out of her.

He proped her.

Ok, Annie Chapman, she was found with her legs drawn up, turned outward I believe. The skirt raised to her hips. He intestine pulled over her left should(I believe it was the left, I dont have the report in front of me at the time) and a chunk of abdominal skin above the right shoulder. She had her(one of them, cant remember which)arm resting in her abdomen, placed there AFTER mutilation.

He like the Killer of Stort, proped her for the same reason I stated above.

Yours truly

[Debra A]

and if I understood it correctly, the breasts were removed. so you have the breasts removed, the abdomen removed in 3 separate flaps, and part of the right buttocks. very similar to Kelly.

Hi,
The breasts were still present in the Jackson case. It is sometimes said that the breast were removed in the Rainham case, but I think that is a misreading of the newspaper reports, and it was that the upper torso that included the breasts was just never recovered.

[Pontius2000]

Debra,

Most of all I know about Jackson came from you. I believe I saw in one of your posts where from 3 years ago that someone named Ryan was in the process of writing a "torso" related book. any info on this?

the only thing I've found on a torso book is one book titled something like the "Thames Torso Murders" which for some reason, is quite expensive ($45US for a paperback).

[Rob Clack]

Messrs Pilot and James,

These 'torso' murders are long overdue for a proper, unbiased write-up. I say we haunt Debra until she gives in and gives us what we want.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

I've been badgering Debs for ages to do the definitive work.

Rob

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Debs,

Ha ha. If you call KT don't tell her I sent you! I'm at work and just spoke to a customer named Tommy Hebert. Small world.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Debra A]

Debra,

If an abortion gone wrong was the motive, then she would not even be a torso victim would she?

I think if Kelly had been destined for the Thames, the Thames she would go. I have no doubt in my mind that if Kelly was a victim or the Torso Killer(s) she would have been disposed of in a similar fasion.

From a prolific standpoint, the "Ripper crimes" seem to be sexual in nature, when the "torso crimes" dont necissarily show so.

Again, this is all from my little knowledge of the Torso murders, which is pretty much the injurys of the four cases you talked about in your wounderful thread about the mortitions notes.

On a personal note, do you know of any good books on the Victorian torso murders? I am thinking about ordering the one written by R. Micheal Gordon, is that reliable?

Yours truly

p.s A good example of what I think Jackson's body would look like if she had been killed by jack the ripper would be like the crime scene photos of the "Black Daliah" if any of you have seen them. Horrible photos, but an exalent example, the mutilations turned up a notch though and most likely without that horrible cut across her mouth.

I agree with your first point, if Elizabeth was the victim of a concealed botched abortion then she may only have a link to one other of the so called torso victims, the Whitehall torso. All the pelvis and pelvic organs were missing in that case too, including the uterus, but that may be more by accident than design.

[Pontius2000]

I dont remember where Jacksons torso was found, but the methodology shown by the torso killer would be most likely abducting the women, then disembowling them in a isolated and secure location, then disposal of the limbs. The killer did not try at great lengths, as did Jack the Ripper, to display the body, but tried more to hide them.

Jackson's body parts were all found separately in the Thames. in most cases that I could find, they were wrapped up separately in clothing. If I remember correctly, everything was found but the head, stomach, and lungs. everything inside the abdomen and chest was removed except part of the wind pipe.

and if I understood it correctly, the breasts were removed. so you have the breasts removed, the abdomen removed in 3 separate flaps, and part of the right buttocks. very similar to Kelly.


as for the "public display" part. I have followed the JTR case for many years. the more I've thought on it, I don't think he was out to make a public display. I really don't think he cared about a public display one way or another. he did his deed and left the bodies where they lay. I do think though that if Jackson were a Ripper victim, that he had become very aware that leaving the bodies about was causing too much of a sensation and thus, too much heat on him.

It's pretty clear that all of the "Ripper letters", with the lone exception POSSIBLY being the From Hell letter, were hoaxes. and if he wasn't interested in taunting the police through letters, then he probably wasn't interested in a public display of the bodies either.


I don't know about the torso victims too much. I know that Jackson was absolutely mutilated and that most of her body was found. I believe another torso's abdomen was opened, but don't know to what extent. another I believe was pretty well intact. but I wouldn't necessarily classify Jackson as a "torso victim" because about 95% of her body was found.

[corey123]

Debra,

If an abortion gone wrong was the motive, then she would not even be a torso victim would she?

I think if Kelly had been destined for the Thames, the Thames she would go. I have no doubt in my mind that if Kelly was a victim or the Torso Killer(s) she would have been disposed of in a similar fasion.

From a prolific standpoint, the "Ripper crimes" seem to be sexual in nature, when the "torso crimes" dont necissarily show so.

Again, this is all from my little knowledge of the Torso murders, which is pretty much the injurys of the four cases you talked about in your wounderful thread about the mortitions notes.

On a personal note, do you know of any good books on the Victorian torso murders? I am thinking about ordering the one written by R. Micheal Gordon, is that reliable?

Yours truly

p.s A good example of what I think Jackson's body would look like if she had been killed by jack the ripper would be like the crime scene photos of the "Black Daliah" if any of you have seen them. Horrible photos, but an exalent example, the mutilations turned up a notch though and most likely without that horrible cut across her mouth.

[Debra A]

Messrs Pilot and James,

These 'torso' murders are long overdue for a proper, unbiased write-up. I say we haunt Debra until she gives in and gives us what we want.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

I've been trying to write something for 3 years, Tom...I need a typist, someone quick like KT!

[Debra A]

That's sounds like a very good summary of the case against, Corey.
There has been a flip side to the argument, suggested at one time by AP Wolf, that maybe Mary kelly was destined to be dumped in the Thames.

On another note, there are other contemporary examples of cases of criminal abortion where the victim has been dismembered and dumped in the same fashion as Elizabeth Jackson, including removal of all the contents of the pelvis and abdomen to disguise the true nature of the crime.