Elizabeth Jackson, JTR victim?

[corey123]

Pontius,

"The heat was not hot on the night of Eddowes murder"? Are you serious? They had every police man out on the grounds searching for the killer. Mobs formed after the "Double event" in protest to the police, or in their words, lack of police success in the ivestigation. The ripper became 'Public enemy No.1' that day. The area in which Kate was killed was hot enough. A public square with some private housing, and wearhouses. A night watchmen standing but yards from the murder spot, and it was patroled every 15 minutes. It was hot enough.

Also, Jack the Ripper is not an organised killer. His methodology is partly disorganised. Yes, he is organised because of the lack of suspicion cast on him and the lack of bodily clues(Apart from the victims) left at the scene. But his lcation of murder of choice is very disorganised. His murders were perpertrated in a very small area, less than a mile, an organised killer would more than likely broaden his hunting ground. The sites of the murders of an organised killer would be miles apart. The areas he killed in were high risk locations, with no guarente of getting out. This is true with all murders, but his were highly risky. He rushed through the murders, not taking the time to do it properly, another disorganised traits. Leaving the apron for the police to find was also disorganised, I even believe there was a foot print near one of the crime scene(I seriously doubt I read this, but for some reason I remember doing so, please correct me if I am wrong) again disorganised.

The change in disposal in the victims that you suggest would not be a great change at all is incorrect. It would indeed be a great change.

Making public displays of the bodies would not have to be part of his motive in killing, the act gave him some thrill. If you are to suggest that he didn't arrange them, then I guess Annies and Kellys arms just flew into their empty abdomens on there own.

One last thing, which I sould have adressed befor this, if he was to kill a prostitute in her room, which he did do, he would not take the body with him, he would leave it as he did with Kelly.

Yours truly

[Pontius2000]

corey, the heat was not as hot at the time of the Eddowes murder. he killed two that night. then it got very very hot. then, he finds a prostitute with her on private room where her body would not be discovered minutes after the fact. but it's discovered the next morning and the search gets even hotter. so he kills another, in the same method. but dismembers and disposes the body so that it's found over the course of two weeks.

the changing of how the bodies are left/disposed of isn't drastic at all for an organized sexual killer, unless making a public display was part of the killer's motivation to begin with. and I don't believe that it was. he, imo, cared about killing and mutilation. after he was done, how the bodies looked or were disposed of was an afterthought. until of course, it became in his best interest to dispose of them in a more discreet manner.

I believe there are many serial killers who have changed their means of disposal over time.

[mattwill]

Is it possible that these torso murders were practice kills, so he would know just how to kill and mutilate so quickly? I know it's far-fetched, but as I recall with the Cleveland Torso Slayer, some of the bodies were dumped and others were displayed to some extent. That is assuming the majority of those were by the same hand.

Then again, it would seem that Jack never totally severed the head in the canonicals like the torso killer displayed, so there goes that theory. Damn, I thought I was on to something.

[corey123]

Pontius,

Not saying its impossible, but it will take some extensive solid evidence to prove it. Unless that is made it will be only a theory, a possible one at that, but not one I would lean to.

This type of offinder would not as quickly as you suggest, change his killing habits. His M.O might evolve with experiance and his fantasy would broaden as he got more time to fufill the fantasy. He is a sadist and he wanted to strike fear into the community, which I believe he was very succesfull in doing.

The unsub obviously, for reasons unknown(but easy to speculate why) hated prostitutes or women in general. The reason for saying so is he De-feminized them, taking the Uterus and cuting off the breast, taking away everything that made them women. Disfiguring their bodies beyond belief, he was sending a message, though not that he knew it. Its all in the tell tale signs in his crime.

Yes, that was all speculatory, but it is most likely correct.

The tell tale signs in that of the murder of Elizabeth Jackson show different signs. He(or she though definantly not) was a preditor. Maybe stalking them. I have not enough to say whether the Unsub would have approached his victim or not. He is heterosexual. He disposes of the body parts in what he thinks are safe areas, though some(I feel it safe to say a small percentage) of his total tally of victims were discovered. In each case(I believe) the head was missing, or not found, ever in any of the four, so he might have kept them for trophies or sold them on the black market. I would say the former. He most likely did not mutilate in the open street but proabally in a work place or home base, where he felt safe. Then probally disposed of the body parts far from that home base.

Again, all speculatory. But sense so is the idea of Jackson being a ripper victim, this should be ok.


Yours truly

[corey123]

Pontius,

Killers dont just drop everything and drastically change the disposal in their murders. The killer obviously did not care for being "Too hot" as you say, for if he did he would not have taken the time to nick the eye lids on eddowes, or removed the organs, or even mutilated them in the first place. All these actions would have greatly increased the chance that he would get caught.

Say it all you want, but this killer would not try to hide his victims, period.


Yours truly

[Pontius2000]

corey, I just don't agree about the displaying the bodies. I mean, as bad as Mary Kelly was done, there's really no way it WOULDN'T be a display, even if he didn't intend to leave it that way for shock value.

but even if he did want to make a display of the victims, he would've realized that it was too hot for him and dismembering/dumping could've understandably come in to play.

[Debra A]

ooh, a race! Time to call KT definitely.

[Uncle Jack]

I am currently researching the Torso case in great depth with the hope of writing a book about it. If all goes to plan then I will try get around to it. But Gordon's book is a good read.

[Natalie Severn]

Pontius2000,
The R Michael Gordon book is fairly well researched and covers a wide area of subject matter but there are one or two
mistakes made over time and place and this can be especially frustrating when he then speculates around a weakly supported statement which you are not sure is fact or not.Anyway, you are not always given the "source" for statements so you are sometimes unable to check his statements.
But the book is certainly worth reading and has useful time charts and cross checks of Torso murders with the suggested JtR victims of 1888 .
PS Have just read Tom"s insert and agree with him.That sums it up neatly.

[corey123]

If you can find a copy for $20-35 I recommend getting the book. It's a good, creepy read that works well as a primer on the mystery. However, there are a few serious caveats -

1) Gordon uses newspapers as his sole source, and not a variety of newspapers, so his resources were very limited. This means the book should never be looked at as an authoritative work.
2) Gordon is obsessed with George Chapman and assumes he killed every person who died in the LVP, so you have to put up with some of his Chapman ravings.
3) Gordon, in his obsession with Chapman, can be pretty loose with the facts at time, so don't get married to any conclusions presented in the book.

Nevertheless, it is a good read and I applaud Gordon for putting something out there on these murders.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Tom,

I have contemplated getting this book, but had also read of his sources and of his obsession with chapman. But I might give it a look.

Thanks

[Tom_Wescott]

The Thames Torso Murders by R. Michael Gordon

the only thing I've found on a torso book is one book titled something like the "Thames Torso Murders" which for some reason, is quite expensive ($45US for a paperback).

If you can find a copy for $20-35 I recommend getting the book. It's a good, creepy read that works well as a primer on the mystery. However, there are a few serious caveats -

1) Gordon uses newspapers as his sole source, and not a variety of newspapers, so his resources were very limited. This means the book should never be looked at as an authoritative work.
2) Gordon is obsessed with George Chapman and assumes he killed every person who died in the LVP, so you have to put up with some of his Chapman ravings.
3) Gordon, in his obsession with Chapman, can be pretty loose with the facts at time, so don't get married to any conclusions presented in the book.

Nevertheless, it is a good read and I applaud Gordon for putting something out there on these murders.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Rob Clack]

You know what I'm like, Rob! I need a research/writing partner to motivate me

I've offered and I think there's probably loads of other things we're going to right together.

Rob

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi All,

I don't know that Ryan was writing a book, but he was writing a very long essay for Ripper Notes magazine that would comprise two or three issues. A big chunk of this he did finish and turn in to editor, Dan Norder, but Dan wanted the complete essay before publication. It never came and a couple of issues later, RN folded. From what I hear the work that was done was very good, but at this point, it seems possible that it will never be finished and see the light of day.

Nevertheless, I believe Debra has access to all the same info Ryan had and would do at least as good a job as Ryan of giving us the skinny on these murders.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[corey123]

Natilie,

I truly think he would take the time to do so. Many a killer have done mutilation to a woman and leave her fully dressed, many leave them nakid.

If you closely look at the placement of the bodies, you will see he DOES arrange them. How do you explain the hand resting in the empty abdomen? The facial mutilation? Placing the chunk of Chapmans flesh over her shoulder? The placement of the intestines? The placement of the Victims belongings?

This is no coincidence.

Also, if he had to lift the clothes, which he didnt have too, he didnt have a problem in cutting through Kate Eddowes clothing did he?

Kelly was no different besides the fact that he had more time. He was just as much into disembowling as he was in the first three(excluding stride due to, well you all know)

Yours truly

[Debra A]

Debra,

Most of all I know about Jackson came from you. I believe I saw in one of your posts where from 3 years ago that someone named Ryan was in the process of writing a "torso" related book. any info on this?

the only thing I've found on a torso book is one book titled something like the "Thames Torso Murders" which for some reason, is quite expensive ($45US for a paperback).

I've not heard anything else on the S G Ryan work , which is a pity.

That book is the R Michael gordon book ? Tom's read it I believe and there are a few reviews around, Chris George did one for Ripperologist magazine I think.