the strength needed to make the throat cuts

[Pontius2000]

add to, or correct, whatever is wrong here.

isn't it said that the first 4 canonicals were cut twice in the throat? the first cut, the start. the second cut, to complete the circular motion around the neck.

yet, Chapman, and I believe Nichols were both nearly decapitated. correct?

if so, it seems to me that it would take someone with a lot of experience in making those type cuts. to nearly decapitate someone with what really amounts to a single cut across the throat. I am 230 pounds and consider myself pretty strong, but I don't think I could cut someone's throat down to the vertebrae with a single cut.

[DVV]

Hi Pontius,

Don't underestimate yourself.
Just try it.

Amitiés,
David

ps: 230 pounds ? How many kilos that means ?

[DVV]

Seriously, Pontius,

it's not a matter of strength, but rather energy...and it's also about the blade, of course.

Amitiés,
David

edit: I've seen so many fat oxes or bulls slaughtered by skinny Ethiopians... I myself have cut several sheeps....

[Pontius2000]

Seriously, Pontius,

it's not a matter of strength, but rather energy...and it's also about the blade, of course.

Amitiés,
David

edit: I've seen so many fat oxes or bulls slaughtered by skinny Ethiopians... I myself have cut several sheeps....

to make a single cut that deep, I'd say it takes experience. I don't think a man who has no experience with a knife could cut a throat down to the vertebrae with a single cut. I don't think energy can account for that.

if it was only two cuts, and they really were nearly decapitated, then I'd say it points to the killer working in the meat trade or either he's an experienced hunter.

as for the conversion to kilos, I've no idea. 230 is around the average size of a heavyweight boxer. though I am definitely NOT of the same build as a heavyweight boxer, just the same weight.

[DVV]

Pontius, remember there two cuts in some cases (Nichols, for example).
And at the time of the second cut, the victim was already dying.

Amitiés,
David

[Pontius2000]

Pontius, remember there two cuts in some cases (Nichols, for example).
And at the time of the second cut, the victim was already dying.

Amitiés,
David

the descriptive reports I read (such as the inquest testimonies) stated that the second cut was made to complete the circular motion around the neck. which is totally understandable whether you're coming from the back or front of the victim. if I were to cut someone's throat, I it would take two cuts to go from near one ear to the other.

but the impression I got from the description was that the second cut did NOT add to the severity of the first cut. if I were to make a go for the vertebrae by cutting the throat, I imagine I'd use the knife in a sawing motion, which is not how the victims were done from the impression I got.

[DVV]

In fact, in Nichols case, both cuts reached through the vertebrae.
My mistake (as often, after some pastis).

Amitiés,
David

[curious]

to make a single cut that deep, I'd say it takes experience. I don't think a man who has no experience with a knife could cut a throat down to the vertebrae with a single cut.

I think exactly the same thing.

curious

[Ben]

I don't think a man who has no experience with a knife could cut a throat down to the vertebrae with a single cut

There's very little evidence that the killer acheived this, Pontius.

[Pontius2000]

There's very little evidence that the killer acheived this, Pontius.

there's not? there's certainly testimony that two of the victims (3 if you count Kelly, though I don't think it was said how many times her throat was cut) were nearly decapitated with one to two cuts. If I remember correctly, only the fabric of a ribbon or scarf kept Chapman from being completely decapitated.

[Ben]

There would necessarily have been some sawing action of some description after the initial "cutting" through the skin. It wasn't a scarf that prevented Chapman from being decapitated so much as the killer's obvious inability to sever the spinal column with his knife.

[claire]

I'm not sure that it would actually take a great deal of strength...although it's worth bearing in mind that the body type of many East End chappies was quite strong and wiry (still see them in prison quite a bit ). The victims would not be struggling with the very first stroke, which you'd want to hit with enough force to incapacitate them, as they'd be rapidly exsanguinating. Just thinking about the men in the wholesale market in Doha, where I've been living, you can see tiny little men swipe clean through the throat of a sheep or goat, revealing the vertebrae (although I admit they've probably had plenty of practice). And a good sharp knife can get you through plenty of tissue quite cleanly if you're preparing meat for cooking.

I guess I sound a bit messed up, don't I?

[Supe]

Pontius,

No, only the first two Canonics received two cuts to the throat. Stride did not, Eddowes almost assuredly didn't and while it was hard to be sure, it seems that Kelly was also despatched with a single cut. And, as Ben says, it was not the scarf that kept Chapman's head attached.

Much more information on the throat cuts can be found in "Suede and the Ripper" in Ripperologist 104 (July 2009). Back issues are available.

Don.

[kensei]

A parallel- serial killer Cary Anthony Stayner, who committed the Yosemite Park murders of 1999 in California, decapitated his fourth victim Joie Ruth Armstrong with a hunting knife. Beheaded her completely, not just nearly, and threw her head into a stream where it was not found right away. And from what I remember from studying the case back then, it was said to have been done with "one smooth stroke," something you'd imagine being done with a sword but accomplished with a knife. The victim was bound at the time but trying to escape.

Stayner's first three victims were a woman and two teenage girls he attacked simultaneously, strangling two and cutting the throat of the last but not all the way through.

[Uncle Jack]

points to the killer.... an experienced hunter

So maybe Herfort has been right all along!!

Seriously I agree with David on this one. I don't think experience is needed.