JTR a "local" man? Arguments for and against

[cats meat man]

In my opinion Jack was a local man and he lived at No 13 Heneage Street.

[DVV]

Hi Cats meat man,
could you tell us more about the suspect?

Amitiés,
David

[DVV]

Ok, I found him. The son of Harriet Hardiman from Hanbury Street.
Know nothing else about this guy.

[cats meat man]

Hi David
I can go into more detail on the`suspects forum but here is a general overview.His name is James Hardiman,eldest son of Harriet Hardiman of 29 Hanbury St cats meat shop.He was a cats meat man,29 years old in 1888 and lived at 29 Hanbury St at various stages in his life.At the time of the Whitechapel murders he was living at 13 Heneage St.His wife was Sarah Hardiman and their daughter,Harriet Maria died on 18 June 1888 aged 12 months as a result of congenital syphillis.On the same date,Sarah was admitted to the London Hospital as a paraplegia case where she remained until her death on 13 Sept 1888.James died on 22 Dec 1891 at 29 Hanbury St.
All the best
Rob

[DVV]

Thanks Rob,
yes, you should open a suspect's thread about him.
Local suspects' discussions are always interesting.

Amitiés,
David

[Blackkat]

I still think our JtR is unknown - none of the current suspects are the one and only. I've heard other people say he was from that area. Well he may have lived in that area, but I don't believe he was born and raised in Whitechapel. I'm not for certain he was an Englishman. I don't think al foreigners would have stuck out - depends on the man. If had been in London for a time, but not born there then he wouldn't stick out. My opinion - he comes outta nowhere, disappears outta nowhere, I think he went away someplace - out of London.

[Ben]

Hi Blackkat,

but I don't believe he was born and raised in Whitechapel.

Why not, just out of interest? And what makes you think he disappeared out of London?

Ben

[Blackkat]

It's completely possible that he got sick and died and didn't leave. It's possible he was born in the East End or nearby. In a previous post I mentioned that I listen quite a bit to those that have profiled Jack even though there are many posters here that don't believe a lick of what profilers have come up with. (a few profilers and behavioral / criminal psycholigists - Laura Richards have stated he was living in the East end, and may have been born there etc etc.) This is the one area that I can't be sure of. He may have lived there, but I don't think he was born in the area. I honestly don't have much proof as to why I think he wasn't English or born in the area. No one has much proof that he was either. Matter of personal opinion I suppose, combined with the local law enforcement not being able to pin him down even though they had numerous people of interest at that time.


Did he disappear? Yes. Whether he died, or stopped, or left he disappeared. There were other murders before and after the 5 attributed to JtR in the area, and in other places outside of London - at least from what I've read so far. If we don't know definately that he was indeed a local (the question in this thread was "was he?") then anything is possible, including that he may have been from another area, came, and then left. Who knows for sure. Maybe it's just me taking a less accepted theory without going to extremes like... naming a suspect that doesn't have much "credibility" as being JtR. There are loads of those. Let's see..over a hundred

Much like highlander, I mean come on...there can be only one.

[Natalie Severn]

The police at the time knew the lodging houses and didnt believe he was a lodger in one of these places and they were more fully aware than we are of the difficulties he would have had getting rid of blood stains in these places and arriving back in the early hours.This view was held from Anderson down.Also very large numbers of lodging house people were interviewed especially in Flower and Dean street but also in the other streets where lodging house victims had stayed. Other houses and tenements were being watched by police,local vigilante groups ,as well as frightened tenement and terraced housing dwellers, on the look out for anyone behaving oddly and these having been well documented as having reported odd behaviour among neighbours to the police.On the other hand ,someone who nobody would have suspected, such as one of the doctors in Whitechapel,may not have been thought to be behaving oddly- out and about to see "patients" at all hours of the night.
So it could have been a person who lived OR worked-or had worked,in Whitechapel-it could have been a seaman who docked regularly in the East End,no problem there getting away.But I am not sold on it "having" to be a local man,anyone who knew Whitechapel just a little could have been the ripper,and certainly someone who had ever allowed prostitutes to lead them to its quiet spots or back to their room as Mary may have done.

[Blackkat]

Natalie-

I too agree, and you brought up the fact that people were interviewed and looking for anyone behaving oddly. Some would say that this man probably didn't act any different from most people, which is the reason why he was able to alude for so long. I agree, but I do agree with the point that he may have had a job or "job" that wouldn't be so suspicious to being out and about at those hours.

[Ben]

Hi Norma,

The police at the time knew the lodging houses and didnt believe he was a lodger in one of these places and they were more fully aware than we are of the difficulties he would have had getting rid of blood stains in these places and arriving back in the early hours.This view was held from Anderson down

Uhhh....no.

No it wasn't.

Anderson's views about the likely domestic circumstances of the murder were concerned entirely with a specific Polish Jew he had in the frame for the murder. It's not as if he decided from the outset that the killer was living somewhere other than a doss house and then alighted on a fitting "non-doss house" suspect. The police as a collective did not "believe" that the killer was unlikely to be a lodger, as far as we know, and there is certainly no record anywhere of any police official, senior or otherwise, casting doubt on the possibility or likelihood of the murderer disposing of bloodstains in a doss house.

What bloodstains, anyway?

Arriving back in the early hours? How could that possibly have presented an obstacle to a doss house inhabitant committing the crimes? Look, these esteemed establishements catered to approximately 400 lodgers on an average night, all working different hours and coming and going at irregular intervals throughout the night. No deputy or doorman had a hope in hell of monitering and recalling the movements of a single lodger over a prolonged time-span, and even if it did, it would tell him nothing.

Yes, lodgers were interviewed, but so were lots of other people, including those who didn't live in the larger doss houses. The police were utterly powerless to interview - let alone clear - even the tiniest portion of the thousands of lodging house occupants in the Whitechapel and Spitalfields area. And let's assume for fun that a policeman just happened to alight upon the "real" ripper during the course of their house-to-house searches - what are we realistically expecting here?

Police: Where were you two weeks ago?

Killer: Here, asleep, as usual.

Police: Can you prove it?

Killer: I dunno...ask the bouncer.

Police: Okay, bouncer....doorman...deputy, whatever the hell you are, was this man (motions to killer) here asleep two weeks ago?

Doorman: Are you out of your fecking mind?? How the hell am I supposed to remember that when hundreds of men come and go through this door on an average night?

Other houses and tenements were being watched by police,local vigilante groups ,as well as frightened tenement and terraced housing dwellers, on the look out for anyone behaving oddly and these having been well documented as having reported odd behaviour among neighbours to the police.On the other hand ,someone who nobody would have suspected, such as one of the doctors in Whitechapel,may not have been thought to be behaving oddly- out and about to see "patients" at all hours of the night.

What the...?

Are you seriously suggesting that if Jack was a local doss house dweller, he'd definitely act oddly and everyone would notice it, but if Jack was a doctor, he definitely wouldn't have behaved oddly and so wouldn't have been noticed? What if Jack was a local lodger who didn't act oddly?

Best regards,
Ben

[Ben]

Hi Blackkat,

Matter of personal opinion I suppose, combined with the local law enforcement not being able to pin him down even though they had numerous people of interest at that time.

Ah, but that's not an argument against the killer being local or locally based, though. Some of the most elusive serial killers - i.e those who were caught some considerable time after their murders - turned out to be "local". Thousands upon thousands were living in the area at the time, and the police had literally no experience of serial killers. It's really no surprise that he wasn't caught. I think we can safely dispose of the idea that the prostitutes would consider certain jobs (especially doctors) safe in comparison to other occupations. Doctors were in the frame from as early as the Hanbury Street inquest thanks to Phillips' minority endorsed view, so it stands to reason that prostitutes would have been especially wary of anyone admitting to a medical profession when sauntering those streets at night.

Best regards,
Ben

[Blackkat]

Hi Blackkat,



Ah, but that's not an argument against the killer being local or locally based, though. Some of the most elusive serial killers - i.e those who were caught some considerable time after their murders - turned out to be "local". Thousands upon thousands were living in the area at the time, and the police had literally no experience of serial killers. It's really no surprise that he wasn't caught. I think we can safely dispose of the idea that the prostitutes would consider certain jobs (especially doctors) safe in comparison to other occupations. Doctors were in the frame from as early as the Hanbury Street inquest thanks to Phillips' minority endorsed view, so it stands to reason that prostitutes would have been especially wary of anyone admitting to a medical profession when sauntering those streets at night.

Best regards,
Ben

Well we can say that it isn't any surprise that he wasn't caught - whether that be because they had no experience with serial killers or because the man flippin disappeared. ( I will admit though if the police had known back then what they know now they MAY have caught him. I'm not so happy and chipper with the police back then. At times ya just have to say DUH) Now as for Doctors, I didn't say doctor, didn't mention doctor, I said professions that would be out. Natalie stated a doctor as an example. As for the prostitutes being wary of anyone admitting to a medical profession, it's safe to dispose of any of the prostitutes being wary of anything. All most of them were worried about is drink and room, I don't buy they were wary of anything much.


Blackkat:

Some would say that this man probably didn't act any different from most people, which is the reason why he was able to alude for so long.

BEN:

What the...?

Are you seriously suggesting that if Jack was a local doss house dweller, he'd definitely act oddly and everyone would notice it, but if Jack was a doctor, he definitely wouldn't have behaved oddly and so wouldn't have been noticed? What if Jack was a local lodger who didn't act oddly?

[Ben]

Hi Kat,

it's safe to dispose of any of the prostitutes being wary of anything. All most of them were worried about is drink and room, I don't buy they were wary of anything much

Initially perhaps, but not once the reality of a "ripper" stalking the streets had kicked in in ernest. There are some interesting interviews with prostitutes and other women living in a Flower and Dean Street lodging house who attested to the fear occasioned by the murders, with many refusing to enter the building alone. I can recall one interview with a particular prostitute who claimed not to care much about the ripper because it was either him or suicide by Thames that was likely to cause her death, but I doubt this reflected a majority view amongst her contemporaries.

Best wishes,
Ben

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

I can recall one interview with a particular prostitute who claimed not to care much about the ripper because it was either him or suicide by Thames that was likely to cause her death, but I doubt this reflected a majority view amongst her contemporaries.

As I recall, it wasn't axctually the Ripper or suicide but the Ripper or death by starvation.
I have no doubt many of them were genuinely scared, but on the other hand most of them also knew they had no choice, so I definitely think that view was shared among the majority. They simply couldn't afford any alternatives, even if they wanted to.
And this - I believe - is the tragedy of it all: the women were probably scared out of their wits and knew about the risks, but they also knew that they had to continue doing what they did if they wanted to survive. So: a no win situation. No doubt a majority felt the risk was great and serious but they also knew that they would be doomed if they didn't continue with the prostitution. Especially since many of them were alcoholics and needed money for that as well.

All the best