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  • Walter Dew's section on JtR in his book

    the other night, for the first time, I read the Ripper section from Dew's book here on the casebook. it is, quite honestly, one of the best things I've ever read on the subject. why it's not talked about more, I don't understand. If you've not read it, I strongly encourage it.

    I believe he most definitely got some dates wrong, which he apologizes for in the beginning of the writing. but it's understandable since it was written and edited 50 years after the fact. and others have criticized it for him seeming to pat himself and the police on the back or maybe trump up how much of a role he actually played in the investigation. I don't care about any of that. there are several points that really stand out to me:

    1. instead of writing as someone on the outside looking in, like a documentary, he writes from the point of view of someone who was actually there on the streets.

    2. whether or not he trumped up the role that he played in the investigation, one thing is clear.....where many of his contemporaries were arrogant enough to say they KNEW who the Ripper was, Dew was man enough to say that he had no earthly clue who the Ripper was and that it was one of his greatest disappointments.

    3. He painted a fantastic picture of the East End. The story of "Squibby", who was mistaken as the Ripper and nearly lynched before the police saved him. The story of the policeman who was not afraid to go into any part of the East End to get a wanted suspect. the clergyman who went into a lodging house and was stripped naked and sent out into the streets. these stories are classic when trying to imagine the times and situations.

    4. Dew put the whole "Ripper frenzy" into a better perspective. with almost any Ripper book you read, you'll see that nothing much was thought of a killer on the loose until after Chapman was killed. that's the impression I've always gotten. when in actuality, according to Dew, the public were already getting nervous after the murders of Emma Smith and Martha Tabram. and after the Nichols and Chapman murders, the public went into an all out panic. I put most of the blame for my previous misconceptions on MacNaughtenn, who so brazenly said there were only 5 Ripper victims. and I think a lot of modern Ripper writers go by this same thing and paint it that way. but as violent as the East End was, murders weren't as common as you'd think. So Dew really hits it home that there was already a little bit of unease before the first "canonical" was even killed.

    5. Emma Smith. I had never even remotely considered her to be a Ripper victim until reading Dew's book. for one thing, the MO didn't match. for another, I've always been led to believe that she told the police that she was attacked by 3 men. Now, I don't know if Dew is right or not, but he says that she arrived at the hospital in a state of bleeding to death and that once inside, she never regained consciousness. He also states that she made no statements whatsoever to police. He points out also that the site where she was attacked was almost at the precise location where Nichols body was found.

    6. the wall graffitti. he appears to not believe that the "Juwes are the men" graffitti had anything to do with the Ripper and says there were wall graffitti close to all the murder sites. He also does not seem to believe that any of the letters were real either.

    so what do you think about it? I think you really have to forgive some of the smaller points that he may have gotten wrong. but do you think he got most of it right?

    to me, he seems to have been a very good and knowledgable cop. it's important to wonder if he got most of it right or wrong. because he seemed to believe that the Ripper was being helped or hidden by his family, but never actually comes out and accuses anyone.

  • #2
    Hi Pontius,

    I too admire Dew's pages about the Ripper.

    This said, the spot where Nichols has been killed is quite far from where Smith said she had been assaulted.
    But Emma Smith lied.
    She's probably been attacked by a client, and certainly not at the junction of 4 streets (Brick Lane, Osborn St, Wentworth St and Old Montague St).

    Was that client the Ripper ?
    As you said, we lack evidences, and there is no knife used...

    Who could do such a horrible thing to a woman, in Whitechapel 1888 ?
    Several bastards, including the Ripper.

    Amitiés,
    David

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Pontius2000 View Post
      so what do you think about it? I think you really have to forgive some of the smaller points that he may have gotten wrong. but do you think he got most of it right?
      I think he made up a lot of it, and/or based it on newspaper cuttings, to boost his profile in the Ripper case, specifically with regard to the Kelly murder. His claim to having been one of the first on the scene, his defying Inspector Beck's dramatic instruction not to look through the window, his slipping in the "awfulness" on the floor, all seem to be concocted for dramatic effect. Quite how - or whether - one should allow that to influence one's perception of his memoirs is up to the individual, of course. Whilst I acknowledge that Dew is by no means the worst braggart in the world of contemporary "Ripper-squad" memoirs, I'm inclined to treat his account with a great deal of caution.
      Kind regards, Sam Flynn

      "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
        I think he made up a lot of it, and/or based it on newspaper cuttings, to boost his profile in the Ripper case, specifically with regard to the Kelly murder. His claim to having been one of the first on the scene, his defying Inspector Beck's dramatic instruction not to look through the window, his slipping in the "awfulness" on the floor, all seem to be concocted for dramatic effect. Quite how - or whether - one should allow that to influence one's perception of his memoirs is up to the individual, of course. Whilst I acknowledge that Dew is by no means the worst braggart in the world of contemporary "Ripper-squad" memoirs, I'm inclined to treat his account with a great deal of caution.

        I don't know whether or not Dew, or many of the other police officers, would have seen the photographs that were taken in the room. but he knew it was one of the most awful scenes and said that it still haunted him. he also said that her eyes were wide open, which is something that you cannot really tell from the grainy photograph. there's nothing he's said that makes me think he was lying. if he was really going to lie about being at one particular crime scene, he may as well have said that he was at 4 of them and literally chased JtR for half a mile before losing sight of him.


        also, he said that they didn't take seriously that you could see the killer in the eyes of the victim, but that they made close-up photos of Mary Kelly's eyes just in case. I wonder if they really took these photos and if so, where are they now?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Pontius2000 View Post
          I don't know whether or not Dew, or many of the other police officers, would have seen the photographs that were taken in the room. but he knew it was one of the most awful scenes and said that it still haunted him. he also said that her eyes were wide open, which is something that you cannot really tell from the grainy photograph. there's nothing he's said that makes me think he was lying. if he was really going to lie about being at one particular crime scene, he may as well have said that he was at 4 of them and literally chased JtR for half a mile before losing sight of him.


          also, he said that they didn't take seriously that you could see the killer in the eyes of the victim, but that they made close-up photos of Mary Kelly's eyes just in case. I wonder if they really took these photos and if so, where are they now?
          Andy Williams was the last person to have them just before he wrote his hit song "cant take my eyes off you"

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
            Andy Williams was the last person to have them just before he wrote his hit song "cant take my eyes off you"
            Trevor,

            Although your posting was mildly amusing, let's put the record straight and talk FACTS shall we?

            1) Andy Williams did NOT write the song "Can't take my eyes off you"

            2) Andy Williams version of the song is a cover version.

            3) Andy Williams' version entered the UK charts in March 1968, eventually reaching No. 5 in the charts.

            3) "Can't Take My Eyes Off You", was written by Bob Crewe and Bob Gaudio.

            4) It was originally a 1967 single by Frankie Valli, who reached No.2 in the Billboard Top 100 in the US.

            5) Amongst MANY others, Anni.Frid Lyngstad (ex-Abba and sung in Swedish, 1967), Boys Town Gang, 1982, Pet Shop Boys 1991, Maureen McGovern, The Lettermen, Nancy Wilson, Samantha Jones, Boys Town Gang, Lauren Hill and Bumblefoot, have all recorded the song with some success.

            best wishes

            Phil
            Chelsea FC. TRUE BLUE. 💙


            Justice for the 96 = achieved
            Accountability? ....

            Comment


            • #7
              Hello Pontius,
              Originally posted by Pontius2000 View Post
              there's nothing he's said that makes me think he was lying.
              I'm afraid there's plenty. The fact that he was the first copper on the scene doesn't tally with contemporary narrative, which only mentions Inspector Beck accompanying McCarthy and Bowyer to Miller's Court. Bowyer was a middle-aged ex-army veteran, yet Dew describes him as a "bulging-eyed youth" - presumably because newspaper reports of the time made Bowyer out to sound like McCarthy's errand-boy. Bowyer was McCarthy's errand-boy in a sense, but rather an old one as errand-boys go.

              Dew also describes "slipping in the awfulness of the floor" at 13 Miller's Court. However we know, from the detailed report left by Dr Bond, that the "awfulness" was on the bed and/or the bedside table, and that the blood had hit the wall and pooled under the top right-hand corner of the mattress. In short, it's unlikely that Dew "slipped in the awfulness" on that floor at all, unless he was limbo-dancing under Kelly's bed.
              also, he said that they didn't take seriously that you could see the killer in the eyes of the victim, but that they made close-up photos of Mary Kelly's eyes just in case. I wonder if they really took these photos and if so, where are they now?
              A reference to taking photographs of the deceased's eyes was made at Annie Chapman's inquest, where a juryman asked whether this should be done. The suggestion was promptly dismissed as being of dubious merit by Dr Bagster Phillips, and I can't see him, or any of the other medics in subsequent murders, taking that seriously. Given that this was the one and only mention of retinal photography made throughout the case, and that this was reported in the press, I suspect that here, too, Dew was relying on half-remembered hearsay or newspaper cuttings, rather than first-hand experience.
              Last edited by Sam Flynn; 01-09-2010, 09:19 PM.
              Kind regards, Sam Flynn

              "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Phil Carter View Post
                Trevor,

                Although your posting was mildly amusing, let's put the record straight and talk FACTS shall we?

                1) Andy Williams did NOT write the song "Can't take my eyes off you"

                2) Andy Williams version of the song is a cover version.

                3) Andy Williams' version entered the UK charts in March 1968, eventually reaching No. 5 in the charts.

                3) "Can't Take My Eyes Off You", was written by Bob Crewe and Bob Gaudio.

                4) It was originally a 1967 single by Frankie Valli, who reached No.2 in the Billboard Top 100 in the US.

                5) Amongst MANY others, Anni.Frid Lyngstad (ex-Abba and sung in Swedish, 1967), Boys Town Gang, 1982, Pet Shop Boys 1991, Maureen McGovern, The Lettermen, Nancy Wilson, Samantha Jones, Boys Town Gang, Lauren Hill and Bumblefoot, have all recorded the song with some success.

                best wishes

                Phil
                Well no point in talking "facts" many of the regular posters on here choose not to accept "facts"

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
                  Well no point in talking "facts" many of the regular posters on here choose not to accept "facts"
                  Which brings us back to Walter Dew perchance?

                  best wishes

                  Phil
                  Chelsea FC. TRUE BLUE. 💙


                  Justice for the 96 = achieved
                  Accountability? ....

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    A few questions on Dew's memoirs:

                    1. He mentions that kelly's eyes were photographed... I can't recall if this has been discussed before. Is this true?

                    2. Dew mentions that PC Watkins stopped and spoke to the nightwatchman Norris (sic)... "and it was from Norris that he learned that police whistles had been sounded 'up Whitechapel way.' 'Must be the Ripper,' conjectured Norris, as the constable went on his way." ------- He is referring to police whistles re: the Stride murder. Is there any truth in this? Minor detail I know.

                    3. At one point, Dew says that after the Kelly murder... "In Whitechapel our inquiries went on and on. The chiefs from Scotland Yard continued to make their headquarters at Leman Street Police Station, battling with their problem long after the public had assumed that all hope of catching the fiend had been abandoned." --- this is interesting, and I am not sure I have ever seen anything on this before. Could be I am daft. But who are the "chiefs from Scotland Yard"? Did men like Swanson keep their headquarters at Leman Street during the Ripper crimes?

                    4. Dew speaks of the polished farthing found under McKenzie's body and speculates that "This in the dim light might easily have been mistaken for a half-sovereign, and the theory held was that Mackenzie had been lured to her death by the offer of a gold coin." He goes on to mention:

                    "Another woman came forward to say that the offer of a similar coin had been made to her, but she had discovered the trick and had run away. Her description of the man was 'a dark foreigner, speaking good English'."

                    ---- Who was this other woman? Does anyone know what Dew is talking about here?

                    Thanks

                    Rob H

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                      Bowyer was McCarthy's errand-boy in a sense, but rather an old one as errand-boys go.
                      Interestingly, Sam. The other day I was looking at Richard Sage. He was the Whitechapel Union Workhouse messenger who was talking to Annie Millwood when she dropped dead. He was 81 years old!!!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by robhouse View Post
                        4. Dew speaks of the polished farthing found under McKenzie's body and speculates that "This in the dim light might easily have been mistaken for a half-sovereign, and the theory held was that Mackenzie had been lured to her death by the offer of a gold coin." He goes on to mention:

                        "Another woman came forward to say that the offer of a similar coin had been made to her, but she had discovered the trick and had run away. Her description of the man was 'a dark foreigner, speaking good English'."

                        ---- Who was this other woman? Does anyone know what Dew is talking about here?
                        The woman was Emily Walton or Walter, whose story was reported in the press at the time of the Chapman murder:


                        That report suggests that a description circulated by the police, of a man with a rather dark beard and moustache, speaking with a foreign accent, originated from Walton. But Sugden suggests instead that it was the description of a man seen by Mrs Richardson at the murder site about a month before (pp. 114-117).

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Hi Chris,

                          Right, OK. I have never really been entirely convinced by Sugden's argument on that point. I don't really disagree with it either... I am on the fence.

                          "Description of a man who entered a passage of the house at which the murder was committed of a prostitute at 2 AM on the 8th."

                          It seems a bit odd that the police would send this notice all over the city just to clear a man who had been seen in the passage a month before.

                          Is there any possibility that there was an Emily Walter? And that she did enter some house on Hanbury Street with a man on the night of the 8th?

                          RH

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Just to summarize the references I have found on this:

                            Walter Dew (speaking of the McKenzie murder):
                            Underneath the body was found a brightly polished farthing. This in the dim light might easily have been mistaken for a half-sovereign, and the theory held was that Mackenzie had been lured to her death by the offer of a gold coin. This was probably the true explanation, for another woman came forward to say that the offer of a similar coin had been made to her, but she had discovered the trick and had run away. Her description of the man was " a dark foreigner, speaking good English ". Jack the Ripper had never been in the habit of decoying his victims with bright farthings. Nor had he ever made the mistake of allowing one of his intended victims to escape.

                            Daily Telegraph Sept 10: "With regard to the bright farthings found on the deceased, a woman has stated that a man accosted her on Saturday morning and gave her two "half-sovereigns," but that, when he became violent, she screamed and he ran off. She discovered afterwards that the "half-sovereigns" were two brass medals. It is said that this woman did accompany the man, who seemed as if he would kill her, to a house in Hanbury-street, possibly No. 29, at 2.30 a.m."

                            Also in the Daily Telegraph Sept 10:
                            "the following is the official telegram despatched to every station throughout the metropolis and suburbs: "Commercial-street, 8.20 p.m. - Description of a man wanted, who entered a passage of the house at which the murder was committed with a prostitute, at two a.m. the 8th. Aged thirty-seven, height 5 ft. 7 in., rather dark, beard and moustache; dress, short dark jacket, dark vest and trousers, black scarf and black felt hat; spoke with a foreign accent.""

                            Daily News Sept 11: "He [a suspect apprehended in Gravesend] in no way answers the description of the man wanted, as published by the police. That description applies, as well as can be gathered, to the man who gave the woman Emily Walton two brass medals, or bright farthings, as half sovereigns when in a yard of one of the houses in Hanbury street at 2 a.m. on Saturday morning, and who then began to ill use the woman. The police attach importance to finding the man, but it is not true that two farthings were found in the dress pocket of the murdered woman, which would have been an important corroboration of Walton's story."

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Hi All,

                              Regarding Dew "slipping in the awfulness of the floor" here's another eye-witness account of Room 13—

                              "The sight of a room thus stained will not easily fade from my memory. It was the scene of the last and most fiendish of the crimes known as the "Whitechapel murders" in London. Blood was on the furniture, blood was on the floor, blood was on the walls, blood was everywhere."

                              It was written by Robert Anderson, so it must be true.

                              Regards,

                              Simon
                              Never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

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