Walter Dew's section on JtR in his book

[Simon Wood]

Hi Sam,

Yes, Anderson was at Room 13. I've got a press cutting somewhere. I'll dig it out and post it.

Regards,

Simon

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
In which case I should have added Robert Anderson amongst the fibbers,
Richard,

[Sam Flynn]

"The sight of a room thus stained will not easily fade from my memory. It was the scene of the last and most fiendish of the crimes known as the "Whitechapel murders" in London. Blood was on the furniture, blood was on the floor, blood was on the walls, blood was everywhere."

It was written by Robert Anderson, so it must be true.

That clinches it for me, Simon! If Anderson said it, then I'll take it on good authority... that the opposite was true

PS: I don't think he was even there, was he? At least, he doesn't get mentioned as visiting 13 Miller's Court in any of the contemporary references.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
Casebook members have a vendetta against witnesses,
Elizabeth long
Albert Cadouche
Schwartz
Packer,
Lawande and co.
Major H Smith
Nathen Shine
Michael Kidney
Hutchinson
Maxwell .[Mrs]
Maurice Lewis,
And now Walter Dew, plus several more one could mention, such as Mrs Prater etc.
These were proberly lying , or mistaken in some form, in the case of Dew, he was proberly never even present at the court that morning, he just invented the whole episode to boost his book sells.
Do we honestly believe that?
Regards Richard.

[curious]

Hi All,

Regarding Dew "slipping in the awfulness of the floor" here's another eye-witness account of Room 13—

"The sight of a room thus stained will not easily fade from my memory. It was the scene of the last and most fiendish of the crimes known as the "Whitechapel murders" in London. Blood was on the furniture, blood was on the floor, blood was on the walls, blood was everywhere."

It was written by Robert Anderson, so it must be true.

Regards,

Simon

But how could the murderer have escaped without leaving bloody footprints?

Curious

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

Regarding Dew "slipping in the awfulness of the floor" here's another eye-witness account of Room 13—

"The sight of a room thus stained will not easily fade from my memory. It was the scene of the last and most fiendish of the crimes known as the "Whitechapel murders" in London. Blood was on the furniture, blood was on the floor, blood was on the walls, blood was everywhere."

It was written by Robert Anderson, so it must be true.

Regards,

Simon

[robhouse]

Just to summarize the references I have found on this:

Walter Dew (speaking of the McKenzie murder):
Underneath the body was found a brightly polished farthing. This in the dim light might easily have been mistaken for a half-sovereign, and the theory held was that Mackenzie had been lured to her death by the offer of a gold coin. This was probably the true explanation, for another woman came forward to say that the offer of a similar coin had been made to her, but she had discovered the trick and had run away. Her description of the man was " a dark foreigner, speaking good English ". Jack the Ripper had never been in the habit of decoying his victims with bright farthings. Nor had he ever made the mistake of allowing one of his intended victims to escape.

Daily Telegraph Sept 10: "With regard to the bright farthings found on the deceased, a woman has stated that a man accosted her on Saturday morning and gave her two "half-sovereigns," but that, when he became violent, she screamed and he ran off. She discovered afterwards that the "half-sovereigns" were two brass medals. It is said that this woman did accompany the man, who seemed as if he would kill her, to a house in Hanbury-street, possibly No. 29, at 2.30 a.m."

Also in the Daily Telegraph Sept 10:
"the following is the official telegram despatched to every station throughout the metropolis and suburbs: "Commercial-street, 8.20 p.m. - Description of a man wanted, who entered a passage of the house at which the murder was committed with a prostitute, at two a.m. the 8th. Aged thirty-seven, height 5 ft. 7 in., rather dark, beard and moustache; dress, short dark jacket, dark vest and trousers, black scarf and black felt hat; spoke with a foreign accent.""

Daily News Sept 11: "He [a suspect apprehended in Gravesend] in no way answers the description of the man wanted, as published by the police. That description applies, as well as can be gathered, to the man who gave the woman Emily Walton two brass medals, or bright farthings, as half sovereigns when in a yard of one of the houses in Hanbury street at 2 a.m. on Saturday morning, and who then began to ill use the woman. The police attach importance to finding the man, but it is not true that two farthings were found in the dress pocket of the murdered woman, which would have been an important corroboration of Walton's story."

[robhouse]

Hi Chris,

Right, OK. I have never really been entirely convinced by Sugden's argument on that point. I don't really disagree with it either... I am on the fence.

"Description of a man who entered a passage of the house at which the murder was committed of a prostitute at 2 AM on the 8th."

It seems a bit odd that the police would send this notice all over the city just to clear a man who had been seen in the passage a month before.

Is there any possibility that there was an Emily Walter? And that she did enter some house on Hanbury Street with a man on the night of the 8th?

RH

[Chris]

4. Dew speaks of the polished farthing found under McKenzie's body and speculates that "This in the dim light might easily have been mistaken for a half-sovereign, and the theory held was that Mackenzie had been lured to her death by the offer of a gold coin." He goes on to mention:

"Another woman came forward to say that the offer of a similar coin had been made to her, but she had discovered the trick and had run away. Her description of the man was 'a dark foreigner, speaking good English'."

---- Who was this other woman? Does anyone know what Dew is talking about here?

The woman was Emily Walton or Walter, whose story was reported in the press at the time of the Chapman murder:

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/daily_news/18880911.html

That report suggests that a description circulated by the police, of a man with a rather dark beard and moustache, speaking with a foreign accent, originated from Walton. But Sugden suggests instead that it was the description of a man seen by Mrs Richardson at the murder site about a month before (pp. 114-117).

[Jon Guy]

Bowyer was McCarthy's errand-boy in a sense, but rather an old one as errand-boys go.

Interestingly, Sam. The other day I was looking at Richard Sage. He was the Whitechapel Union Workhouse messenger who was talking to Annie Millwood when she dropped dead. He was 81 years old!!!

[robhouse]

A few questions on Dew's memoirs:

1. He mentions that kelly's eyes were photographed... I can't recall if this has been discussed before. Is this true?

2. Dew mentions that PC Watkins stopped and spoke to the nightwatchman Norris (sic)... "and it was from Norris that he learned that police whistles had been sounded 'up Whitechapel way.' 'Must be the Ripper,' conjectured Norris, as the constable went on his way." ------- He is referring to police whistles re: the Stride murder. Is there any truth in this? Minor detail I know.

3. At one point, Dew says that after the Kelly murder... "In Whitechapel our inquiries went on and on. The chiefs from Scotland Yard continued to make their headquarters at Leman Street Police Station, battling with their problem long after the public had assumed that all hope of catching the fiend had been abandoned." --- this is interesting, and I am not sure I have ever seen anything on this before. Could be I am daft. But who are the "chiefs from Scotland Yard"? Did men like Swanson keep their headquarters at Leman Street during the Ripper crimes?

4. Dew speaks of the polished farthing found under McKenzie's body and speculates that "This in the dim light might easily have been mistaken for a half-sovereign, and the theory held was that Mackenzie had been lured to her death by the offer of a gold coin." He goes on to mention:

"Another woman came forward to say that the offer of a similar coin had been made to her, but she had discovered the trick and had run away. Her description of the man was 'a dark foreigner, speaking good English'."

---- Who was this other woman? Does anyone know what Dew is talking about here?

Thanks

Rob H

[Phil Carter]

Well no point in talking "facts" many of the regular posters on here choose not to accept "facts"

Which brings us back to Walter Dew perchance?

best wishes

Phil

[Trevor Marriott]

Trevor,

Although your posting was mildly amusing, let's put the record straight and talk FACTS shall we?

1) Andy Williams did NOT write the song "Can't take my eyes off you"

2) Andy Williams version of the song is a cover version.

3) Andy Williams' version entered the UK charts in March 1968, eventually reaching No. 5 in the charts.

3) "Can't Take My Eyes Off You", was written by Bob Crewe and Bob Gaudio.

4) It was originally a 1967 single by Frankie Valli, who reached No.2 in the Billboard Top 100 in the US.

5) Amongst MANY others, Anni.Frid Lyngstad (ex-Abba and sung in Swedish, 1967), Boys Town Gang, 1982, Pet Shop Boys 1991, Maureen McGovern, The Lettermen, Nancy Wilson, Samantha Jones, Boys Town Gang, Lauren Hill and Bumblefoot, have all recorded the song with some success.

best wishes

Phil

Well no point in talking "facts" many of the regular posters on here choose not to accept "facts"

[Sam Flynn]

Hello Pontius,

there's nothing he's said that makes me think he was lying.

I'm afraid there's plenty. The fact that he was the first copper on the scene doesn't tally with contemporary narrative, which only mentions Inspector Beck accompanying McCarthy and Bowyer to Miller's Court. Bowyer was a middle-aged ex-army veteran, yet Dew describes him as a "bulging-eyed youth" - presumably because newspaper reports of the time made Bowyer out to sound like McCarthy's errand-boy. Bowyer was McCarthy's errand-boy in a sense, but rather an old one as errand-boys go.

Dew also describes "slipping in the awfulness of the floor" at 13 Miller's Court. However we know, from the detailed report left by Dr Bond, that the "awfulness" was on the bed and/or the bedside table, and that the blood had hit the wall and pooled under the top right-hand corner of the mattress. In short, it's unlikely that Dew "slipped in the awfulness" on that floor at all, unless he was limbo-dancing under Kelly's bed.

also, he said that they didn't take seriously that you could see the killer in the eyes of the victim, but that they made close-up photos of Mary Kelly's eyes just in case. I wonder if they really took these photos and if so, where are they now?

A reference to taking photographs of the deceased's eyes was made at Annie Chapman's inquest, where a juryman asked whether this should be done. The suggestion was promptly dismissed as being of dubious merit by Dr Bagster Phillips, and I can't see him, or any of the other medics in subsequent murders, taking that seriously. Given that this was the one and only mention of retinal photography made throughout the case, and that this was reported in the press, I suspect that here, too, Dew was relying on half-remembered hearsay or newspaper cuttings, rather than first-hand experience.

[Phil Carter]

Andy Williams was the last person to have them just before he wrote his hit song "cant take my eyes off you"

Trevor,

Although your posting was mildly amusing, let's put the record straight and talk FACTS shall we?

1) Andy Williams did NOT write the song "Can't take my eyes off you"

2) Andy Williams version of the song is a cover version.

3) Andy Williams' version entered the UK charts in March 1968, eventually reaching No. 5 in the charts.

3) "Can't Take My Eyes Off You", was written by Bob Crewe and Bob Gaudio.

4) It was originally a 1967 single by Frankie Valli, who reached No.2 in the Billboard Top 100 in the US.

5) Amongst MANY others, Anni.Frid Lyngstad (ex-Abba and sung in Swedish, 1967), Boys Town Gang, 1982, Pet Shop Boys 1991, Maureen McGovern, The Lettermen, Nancy Wilson, Samantha Jones, Boys Town Gang, Lauren Hill and Bumblefoot, have all recorded the song with some success.

best wishes

Phil