Some Definitions Please!

[ghoulstonstreet]

Hi ALL and to all a Merry Christmas. Don't have to work today so I'm sitting back enjoying the Tree and Sugden's Complete Jack The Ripper. So far I have run across about a dozen words or phrases which have cropped up before in reading the Ripper story. Some of these things are British and unclear to us Mericans and some of them are archaic Victorian terms. Please fill me in on these if you can explain them:

What does a deerstalker hat actually look like?
What is a wide-awake hat?
Either Chapman or Eddowes was (or was not) wearing "stays". What are they?
What is a hard felt hat (does it have any particular shape)? Soft "American" hat?
What is a workhouse infirmary?
What does it mean "someone was sent to the workhouse"? What happened there?
What's an ulster?
A linsey frock?
Also, the book says that Eddowes was in possession of part of an apron including a tie. Strangely it doesn't say she was wearing an apron. Is it assumed that the matching part found in Goulston Street matched this apron which was "in her possession"?
I finally figured out what "model dwellings" were (didn't think there could have been much "model" anything in Whitechapel).

Thanks to all who help me with these terms. I might add a few more later.

[DVV]

What does a deerstalker hat actually look like?
What is a wide-awake hat?
Either Chapman or Eddowes was (or was not) wearing "stays". What are they?

Merry Christmas Gst Str,

certainly knowledgeable English-speaking posters will answer you better than I can.

For the time being...

I think a deerstalker is a double-peaked cap, see Sherlock Holmes.
Wideawake... I remember there are at least two kinds, take care!
"Stays" are an old word for "corset", if I'm correct.

Amitiés,
David

[DVV]

I remember a discussion dedicated to the linsey frock, months ago. I think The Grave Maurice gave the correct definition. But where was it...?
I merely recall that "linsey" means "linen".

[lynn cates]

answers

Hello Ghoul. I shall try to answer some of your questions. Beware my scanty knowledge.

"What does a deerstalker hat actually look like?"

Remember the old Basil Rathbone as Sherlock Holmes movies? The hat he wore whilst sleuthing was one.

"What is a wide-awake hat?"

Try the hat worn by the American Quaker oatmeal man.

"Either Chapman or Eddowes was (or was not) wearing "stays". What are they?"

A device to, um, lift and separate a lady's, um, mammary appendages. Some look like a miniature corset.

"What is a hard felt hat (does it have any particular shape)? Soft "American" hat?"

These are a bit ambiguous. Sorry.

"What is a workhouse infirmary?"

A quasi hospital attached to a workhouse.

"What does it mean "someone was sent to the workhouse"? What happened there?"

Quite often due to extreme poverty. My understanding is that people were fed (well, sort of) and housed (again, sort of) in return for some menial, makeshift work.

"What's an ulster? A linsey frock?"

Try recollections.biz. They have a wide assortment of women's Victorian wear. They may have pictures.

"Also, the book says that Eddowes was in possession of part of an apron including a tie. Strangely it doesn't say she was wearing an apron. Is it assumed that the matching part found in Goulston Street matched this apron which was "in her possession"?"

Yes. The story I have is that the missing piece was tried and fit perfectly.

Hope this helps.

The best.
LC

[DVV]

Try the hat worn by the American Quaker oatmeal man.

"What is a workhouse infirmary?"

A quasi hospital attached to a workhouse.

LC

Bravo Lynn,

but there are two types of wideawake, if memory serves (from an old thread).
Also, perhaps "workhouse" has a different meaning in American: something like "reformatory", while are East End workhouses are "hospices".

Amitiés,
David

[ChrisGeorge]

Bravo Lynn,

but there are two types of wideawake, if memory serves (from an old thread).
Also, perhaps "workhouse" has a different meaning in American: something like "reformatory", while are East End workhouses are "hospices".

Amitiés,
David

??? Both the United States and Britain had almshouses. Not exactly a reformatory but a poorhouse, an institution meant to help those who were destitute and homeless. See this Google search in regard to almshouses in the United States.

Chris

[Hunter]

Hi ALL and to all a Merry Christmas. Don't have to work today so I'm sitting back enjoying the Tree and Sugden's Complete Jack The Ripper. So far I have run across about a dozen words or phrases which have cropped up before in reading the Ripper story. Some of these things are British and unclear to us Mericans and some of them are archaic Victorian terms. Please fill me in on these if you can explain them:

What does a deerstalker hat actually look like?
What is a wide-awake hat?
Either Chapman or Eddowes was (or was not) wearing "stays". What are they?
What is a hard felt hat (does it have any particular shape)? Soft "American" hat?
What is a workhouse infirmary?
What does it mean "someone was sent to the workhouse"? What happened there?
What's an ulster?
A linsey frock?
Also, the book says that Eddowes was in possession of part of an apron including a tie. Strangely it doesn't say she was wearing an apron. Is it assumed that the matching part found in Goulston Street matched this apron which was "in her possession"?
I finally figured out what "model dwellings" were (didn't think there could have been much "model" anything in Whitechapel).

Thanks to all who help me with these terms. I might add a few more later.

I just got through with my family getogether and have a little time to maybe answer some of your question based on what I mostly have learned as a 19th century reenactor. I'm American also but the words usage at that time were similar in UK and US.

A deerstalker hat was a round hat with a bill at front and back, like the stereotypical Sherlock Holmes wore.

A wideawake hat was a felt hat with a wide brim and low crown, popular throughout 19th century.

Stays were a waistband worn by women similar to a corset. Garters were sometimes attached to hold up the stockings.

A hard felt hat was a brimmed hat of higher quality than the soft felt hat or "slouch hat" which didn't hold its shape as well (the slouch that is). The brim was of varrying widths and the crown was medium heigth.

A workhouse infirmary was a hospital for a penal farm- which is what a workhouse is ( usually for petty crimes.)

An ulster is a heavy overcoat usually with a belt.


a linsey frock is a medium lenth jacket of strong coarse fabric like a mixture of linen and wool.

As for Kate's apron, it was believed that the two parts were a match.




hope this helps. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong about any of these or could perhaps elaborate a little more.

Merry Christmas,
Hunter

[Hunter]

I just got through with my family getogether and have a little time to maybe answer some of your question based on what I mostly have learned as a 19th century reenactor. I'm American also but the words usage at that time were similar in UK and US.

A deerstalker hat was a round hat with a bill at front and back, like the stereotypical Sherlock Holmes wore.

A wideawake hat was a felt hat with a wide brim and low crown, popular throughout 19th century.

Stays were a waistband worn by women similar to a corset. Garters were sometimes attached to hold up the stockings.

A hard felt hat was a brimmed hat of higher quality than the soft felt hat or "slouch hat" which didn't hold its shape as well (the slouch that is). The brim was of varrying widths and the crown was medium heigth.

A workhouse infirmary was a hospital for a penal farm- which is what a workhouse is ( usually for petty crimes.)

An ulster is a heavy overcoat usually with a belt.


a linsey frock is a medium lenth jacket of strong coarse fabric like a mixture of linen and wool.

As for Kate's apron, it was believed that the two parts were a match.




hope this helps. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong about any of these or could perhaps elaborate a little more.

Merry Christmas,
Hunter

Everyone beat me to by the time I posted

Hunter

[Supe]

The two apron pieces were almost assuredly a "perfect match" because, as luck would have it, the apron was sundered right across a patch and not only did the two apron halves mate, but so too did the patched parts. The odds of a patch being in the same place and in the same proportions in two different aprons are really too high to reasonably contemplate as mere coincidence. The one piece of physical evidence among the various muders was almost certainly genuine and that means the likelihood is great that the muderer of Kate Eddowes carried away half the apron from Mitre Square and dropped it on Goulston Street.

Don.

[ghoulstonstreet]

Thank you! Thank you! More to Come.

Thanks to all of you for your unbelievably quick replies to all my concerns. I guess the "stay" is similar to what we called a garter belt in the mid 20th century. The ulster surprised me (heavy coarse coat). Thanks again, I'll probably come up with a few more.

Does anybody know whether the apron piece has been preserved?

[lynn cates]

keeping up

Hello Ghoul. Well, the garter belt is designed to keep stockings up. Not so the stays.

The best.
LC

[DVV]

??? Both the United States and Britain had almshouses. Not exactly a reformatory but a poorhouse, an institution meant to help those who were destitute and homeless. See this Google search in regard to almshouses in the United States.

Chris

Hi Chris, and thanks,

I was merely alluding to the fact that "workhouse" in American, can mean "reformatory", in French "Maison de Correction", which has nothing to do, as we know, with the East End workhouses, such as that where Annie Millwood died.

Amitiés,
David

[curious]

I guess the "stay" is similar to what we called a garter belt in the mid 20th century.

Hi, Goulston Street,

Lynn is right, the garter belt simply held up stockings. But to add more detail, the stays went mainly above the waist with tab-sort of things to also hold up stockings.

However, the garter belt fitted at the waist and was downward and had nothing to do with the bosom.

curious

[perrymason]

Im sure Dons post covers the points regarding the match of the section and body of the apron....but I did catch another question you had in there as well Ghoulston....that the apron section was said to match the piece in the "possession" of Kate Eddowes....it doesnt say the one she was wearing when found.

I do believe that the section contained one of the two "ties" for the apron, and that when you consider what happened to Kate you would have to assume that the apron was displaced at the very least when he shoves her clothes up,and when he tears and cuts the section free....as I said, I believe he takes with him on that section one of the 2 strings that was used to secure it on her...so, it was likely not "fastened" on her when they found her.

My best regards

[lynn cates]

stays

Hello Ghoul and Curious. If you'd like to see what stays looked like, you might have a go at the movie, "A Journey to the Centre of the Earth"--that's the one with James Mason. Mason (as Lindenbrook) tells Arlene Dahl (Mrs. Goteborg) to remove her stays as they will make breathing difficult. A few moments later, the duck (Gertrude) is seen dragging them off.

The best, chaps.
LC