JTR Exhibition in Docklands

[caz]

Caz, you don't have to, if you've bought any of my work and want your money back I'll be happy to refund it in full.

Oh for pity's sake, Neal. What on earth have I written that could have given you the impression that I want my money back?

Whatever beef you have with the exhibition organisers, there is really no call to take it out on people who have not only bought your book and gained a lot from it, but have said repeatedly that they do admire and appreciate your work and would be only too pleased to see the results on public display.

Love,

Caz
X

[Jeff Leahy]

Oh for crying out loud.......get over it!

Is this a boy/girl thing?

[Natalie Severn]

Your missing the piont. Neil has a very fixed interest (ie the Victims) even that he sees is a very concise veiw (ie Nichols, Chapman, Stride, Eddows and to a differant extent Kelly)

Thats what his work is about..and he doesnt give an 'F' what we all think about it..that is what Neal Sheldon has done..that is what he is...finish..

And thank God for people like Neal Sheldon...

We can all sit here and RATIONALIZE..but you all know he is right really because Neal did it..

I know whose side I'd rather be on...up the Ripperologists!

Seriously Neal you have my support..I dont even need to think about it...I'm behind you 100% and any program I make will have you as a main advisor..

RESPECT ...yours Jeff xx

Oh for crying out loud.......get over it!

[Jeff Leahy]

Thats not quite what I meant Neal.I agree they were individuals which is why your book is important.But it doesnt have to be counterposed.You can do both things.Write about them as individuals as you have done as well as place them in a wider social context where poverty ,human suffering,squalor and degradation were the norm for everybody.

Your missing the piont. Neil has a very fixed interest (ie the Victims) even that he sees is a very concise veiw (ie Nichols, Chapman, Stride, Eddows and to a differant extent Kelly)

Thats what his work is about..and he doesnt give an 'F' what we all think about it..that is what Neal Sheldon has done..that is what he is...finish..

And thank God for people like Neal Sheldon...

We can all sit here and RATIONALIZE..but you all know he is right really because Neal did it..

I know whose side I'd rather be on...up the Ripperologists!

Seriously Neal you have my support..I dont even need to think about it...I'm behind you 100% and any program I make will have you as a main advisor..

RESPECT ...yours Jeff xx

[Natalie Severn]

Thats not quite what I meant Neal.I agree they were individuals which is why your book is important.But it doesnt have to be counterposed.You can do both things.Write about them as individuals as you have done as well as place them in a wider social context where poverty ,human suffering,squalor and degradation were the norm for everybody.

[Neal Shelden]

I still think that we should not just see them only as part of the east end human misery though, they were individuals and their individual lives tell the stories of what women like them went through that made them end up where they did. There is no point going down the social history route at this exhibition when their stories can provide people with enough social history of the times.

[Natalie Severn]

Neal,
The way I see the victims of Jack the Ripper is as part of what Engels called "the immense haunt of human misery" [The East End] .And the good news was that when Engels came to issue a new edition ,in 1892 ,of "The Condition of the Working Class in England in 1844" ,he was able to state with some optimism that "the East End is no longer that stagnant pool it had been six years ago---ie in 1888."It has shaken off its torpid despair,it has returned to life,and has become the home of what is called the "New Unionism",that is to say,of the organisation of the great mass of unskilled workers......"
And looking at the fine people you have introduced us to,who are the descendants of some of Jack"s victims, you cant help but feel their sons and daughters after the shock of 1888, also shook off their legacy of despair , "returned to life" and ---got on with it------and that their great,great grandmother"s would have been very proud of them.......
Best
Norma

[Neal Shelden]

But I'll get over it and it will never stop me appreciating everything Neal has done to remind us about Jack's victims.

Caz, you don't have to, if you've bought any of my work and want your money back I'll be happy to refund it in full.

You can't turn back the clock but it's up to you if you go forward with renewed determination or give up the fight.

If anyone is worth a damn they'll fight for what they know to be true and be prepared to stand by that belief. Someone I know suggests that I'm supposed to be a respected Ripperologist and in so many words should moderate my opinions, but sorry I have no wish or care to be considered in the same way as an Evans, Begg, Skinner etc...
I would sooner be the pariah of Ripperology and let any reputation be flushed down the toilet than do anything but stand up for my research and the reason for why I started it in the first place.

[caz]

Neal,
Be reassured, many of us on these boards really treasure your book you know---

Hi Nats,

And that includes me (believe it or not). I don't particularly like being made to feel like a complete s**t for having said something positive about the experience hubby and I had at the exhibition. But I'll get over it and it will never stop me appreciating everything Neal has done to remind us about Jack's victims.

Hi Neal,

I can taste your frustration and I do feel for you. You can't turn back the clock but it's up to you if you go forward with renewed determination or give up the fight. I have faith in my own first impressions and I still think you are a glass-half-full person (as I am) and not a glass-half-empty one. I can only wish you all the best.

Love,

Caz
X

[truebluedub]

Hi Neal,
I haven't actually been to the exhibition (yet) but from what I'm reading on these posts the victims are only being represented by what was done to them. Considering the nature of an exhibition this may be because they are using visual sources and like it or lump it the mortuary photos are all they have to work with (with the notable exception of the Annie Chapman picture you discovered).
Kind regards
Chris Lowe

[Natalie Severn]

I am at a loss here Neal to be honest.The mistake may be in calling such an Exhibition 'Jack the Ripper and The East End"-----its a bit of an unmanageable combination of terms it seems to me.Maybe we can look at it from the point of view that it may awaken an interest for some visitors ,in the life stories of the victims.As well as the wider conditions of the East End poor that so many struggled under- women,men and children.
Best
Norma

[Neal Shelden]

Hi Neal

I would say the present exhibition could set a precedent for a permanent museum on the Ripper, something that you could work toward to tell the truth about the murders and the lives of the victims. I would not give up so easily. As I remarked earlier, even though you are disappointed with the Docklands exhibition as it stands, it is a step up from the London Dungeon or Tussaud's garish type exhibit that exploits the murders and the idea of a bloody murderer. The Museum in Docklands show puts the crimes and the time of Jack the Ripper on a scholarly and educational level. I should think that type of display and education for the general public is something that all of us who study the Whitechapel murders should encourage and work toward.

All the best

Chris

I just get the impression though that some people just want an exhibition about Jack the Ripper regardless of it's content, I don't, there's no point to this exhibtion if it all it does is to relegate the victims by simply ignoring their lives leading up to their murders.

[Neal Shelden]

I totally support and appreciate Neal"s research into the lives of the victims.However,I think that further exposition of the deplorable social conditions of the time could also bring to public attention the related issues that caused many thousands of Whitechapel women to go on the streets to avoid starvation.Rampant exploitation of the East End poor by slum landlords such as Lord Salisbury, the Prime Minister at the time of the murders, could have done with being highlightedby the exhibition too.Just as the widespread neglect and poverty of the East End was tackled and brought to public attention by Dickens in his books on the East End a little beforehand.
In the period we discuss-1887/88/89 ,the East End had just begun its fight back against these oppressive conditions .
Neal has done a great service to five of the victims of Jack the Ripper in his book and given them backsome of their human dignity by rescuing them from neglect and obscurity and providing us with a non judgmental, and properly personalised place in history.
But I would also like to see such a history of their lives developed even further and placed in the wider social and economic historical context .
The victims of Jack the Ripper need to be placed alongside the rest of struggling humanity circa 1888.The Match Girls,the Unemployed,the exploited sweat shop workers----who all tried to improve things by their organised activities.Above all let them be placed alongside the nameless thousands of men,women and children who were unable to escape the desperate poverty of Whitechapel in 1888 and died early of defeat and starvation.

Sorry but I don't agree Norma, the victims are already placed alongside the Match Girls, the unemployed etc..., and isn't that what the exhibition is about and therefore maybe you should back what the curators have done?
What I'm suggesting is that despite the fact that these murders are the most famous in the world, the victims of the most famous murders are still considered to be no more than prostitutes and mortuary photographs to an exhibition like this. The Match Girls, the Unemployed etc... can be part of an East End exhibition but a Jack the Ripper exhibition should concentrate more on the victims, but of course they were not eastenders.

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks Caz.The phossy jaw caused a great deal of suffering no doubt about it---and led to early death from what I can gather.

Neal,
Be reassured, many of us on these boards really treasure your book you know---




Best Wishes
Norma

[Neal Shelden]

Evening Caz,

Morning Neal,

I'm sorry if you were seriously expecting everyone coming away from the Jack the Ripper & the East End exhibition to call it a load of pointless trash on that basis. But I'm afraid if that's the case you rather set yourself up to be sorely disappointed.

Yes you're right Caz, some people are desperate for anything.

Yes, the organisers could have concentrated more on the individual lives of the (relatively tiny number of) prostitutes struggling to survive in the East End, whose paths crossed with the 1888 equivalent of Steve Wright. But that doesn't, in my view, make the whole project a waste of its organisers' time and money if just one person comes away from it with the same hunger you had to learn more about the victims and to educate the public about them. Presumably you didn't need the perfect exhibition to inspire you?

Yes one person walks away with a want to find out more about the victims of Jack the Ripper, and the curators of the museum walk away with a s**t load of money after exploiting the subject matter for the benefit of their bank accounts and notoriety.

I have no more inside info about the organisers than you have, I'm afraid. But in your shoes I'd probably try the Museum of London main switchboard, if you haven't already, who may be able to supply contact details for the head honcho.

Yes and I'll look forward to their failure to reply

Neal