Oct.15, 1888 Med Article: Madness, Tumblety & Organ Theft Theories

[mklhawley]

Some things that may or may not be useful in dissecting this angle.

The eminent Dr. Lawson Tait, despite being an expert in ovectomies and writing books on the diseases of women, was not a gynecologist, and he'd slap your face for suggesting it. It just wasn't a medical specialty then (I mean it was, but a humiliating one). My dad has some of his books and letters and the man is clearly horrified that he was considered an expert in "women's medicine". If I recall he said something like "As if I am nothing but a midwife"

And here is why. Ovectomies were considered dangerous procedures. Hysterectomies were not. A family physician could and did perform hysterectomies. Never mind the fatalities for each procedure were the same. But ovectomies were noble because it was considered a way of treating a disease or condition and still leave the woman able to bear children. Hysterectomies were still considered a valid method of attitude adjustment.

This might actually be the most important bit, but as always, judge it as you will. Evidently no organ taken from any of the victims was suitable for medical specimens. When excising a uterus for study, there are two methods of cutting. The first would be considered a total hysterectomy. Vagina, uterus, fallopian tubes, ovaries all removed as one system. The second would be what is today considered a standard hysterectomy, which removes the uterus just above the cervix, leaving the vagina intact. These two ways were standard, so a guy with a pickled uterus in France was looking at essentially the same thing as a guy with a pickled uterus in New York.

None of the organs were taken that way. None of them could be used as a medical specimen without some sort of gross deformity that would classify it as a curiosity, and a: I'm struggling to think of something about a uterus that could be so deformed and b: amazing luck he happened to kill two women with freak uteri. Clearly he couldn't know that going in. If he was a medical professional looking for a study organ, he would know to go the standardized route. If he was trying to sell them to a medical professional, they would have been rejected, and then why try it again without learning the right way to do it?

and that's all I got.

Hi Errata,

I believe I read somewhere that the coroner, Baxter, suggested that if the Whitechapel fiend might not have been the medical student but someone hired to get the specimens. If he was attempting to collect specimens for a wealthy American medical student, he may have been doing it without the students' knowledge of the method of retrieval. In other words, the student told someone that he will pay handsomely for uterus specimens but does not care how it is done. If so, it would explain the lousy samples.

Mike

[Wickerman]

Wickerman, I have some information on Post Mortem Procedures that I intended to post, so I'll try to locate it and get it posted.
Archaic

One of the best examples of a post-mortem report is that by Dr. Phillips concerning the McKenzie murder in, Ultimate JtR Sourcebook, pp 455-60.
Which only demonstrates the Bond post-mortem notes on the Kelly murder are only a summary and not a full record of her post-mortem.
Perhaps here we have two extremes, but what was the norm?

[Jonathan H]

To Archaic

Thanks for the compliment about my article: 'Tatcho's Tale'.

I hope you enjoy Parts II and III as much.

I myself try and use 'Tumbletyesque' at least once a day.

[Errata]

Hi Errata,

I believe I read somewhere that the coroner, Baxter, suggested that if the Whitechapel fiend might not have been the medical student but someone hired to get the specimens. If he was attempting to collect specimens for a wealthy American medical student, he may have been doing it without the students' knowledge of the method of retrieval. In other words, the student told someone that he will pay handsomely for uterus specimens but does not care how it is done. If so, it would explain the lousy samples.

Mike

I have never heard that theory. I would still think that since the student would require them in a specific condition, he would relay his requirements to his procurer. A student would not need more than one uterus in a jar. If the condition was really of no importance, why request a second uterus? And if the first was unsatisfactory, say for being non standardized, why would he not specify what was needed? In other words, why would the Ripper screw up the second order as well?

I think there is a very fine line between collecting medical samples, and collecting trophies. It is entirely plausible that a medical student would want these uteri, but I don't see him legitimately needing them for his studies. Without a legitimate medical purpose, the motive sort of slides across the line from anatomy samples to some kind of fixation.

[mklhawley]

I have never heard that theory. I would still think that since the student would require them in a specific condition, he would relay his requirements to his procurer. A student would not need more than one uterus in a jar. If the condition was really of no importance, why request a second uterus? And if the first was unsatisfactory, say for being non standardized, why would he not specify what was needed? In other words, why would the Ripper screw up the second order as well?

I think there is a very fine line between collecting medical samples, and collecting trophies. It is entirely plausible that a medical student would want these uteri, but I don't see him legitimately needing them for his studies. Without a legitimate medical purpose, the motive sort of slides across the line from anatomy samples to some kind of fixation.

Interesting, in the same Bridgeport Morning News article, it talks of another motive, which now seems pertinent:

“An American who used to live in New York, and who now keeps an herb shop in the Whitechapel district, was visited by a detective at his place this week. The detective asked him if he had sold any unusual compound of herbs to a costomer [sic] since August. Similar inquires have been made at other shops in the neighborhood. The basis for this investigation has a startling Shakespearian flavor. An eminent engineer in London suggested to the police the theory that the murderer was a medical maniac trying to find the elixir of life, and was looking for an essential ingredient in parts taken from murdered bodies; that, like the witches in Macbeth, he spent time over bubbling caldrons of hell broth, made gory by the ingredients, and looking for the charm.”

This, of course, is the central theme of my article: http://www.searchingfortruthwithabro...ir_of_Life.pdf


Sincerely,

Mike

[Jonathan H]

A brilliant article Mike, for which I offer congratulations and the hope that you write more.

[mklhawley]

Thanks Jonathan. It all came together after reading an article by Joe Chetcuti, Knocking on Pall Mall's Door.

[mklhawley]

Greetings,

The following states the Coroner suggests the medical student might not have been JTR, but someone else attempting to fill the need.


Westcoast Times, 16 November 1888.

…He stated his willingness to give 20 pounds for each, and explained that his object was toissue an actual specimen with each copy of a publication on which he was engaged. He was told that it was impossible t have his wish fulfilled; but he still urged his request, and it was discovered later that he had called at another institution on a similar strange and ghastly erran. “Now,’, said the Coroner, “is it not possible that the Knowledge of this demand may have incited some abandoned wretch to possess himself of a specimen? It seems beyond belief that such inhuman wickedness could enter into the mind of any man; but unfortunately, our criminal annals prove that every crime is possible. I need hardly say that I at once communicated my information to the Detective Department of Scotland-yard. Of course I do not know what use has been made of it; but I believe that publicity may possibly further elucidate this fact, and, therefore, I have not withheld from you my knowledge. By means of the Press some further explanation may be forthcoming from America, if not from here.”…


Sincerely,

Mike

[Archaic]

Links To My Other Threads & Articles

Hi everyone. I'm enjoying the new postings on this thread; thank you.

Several people have asked for links to the other LVP Medical Journal and/or Tumblety articles I have posted. There's quite a few of them by now, so the easiest way I have found to access them all is to use the Casebook 'Advanced Search' tools and choose 'Search By Poster' > (Enter Poster's Name) > 'Threads Started By Poster' > Hit 'Search'. This brings up in all threads started by a particular poster. I just did this, and to save you time the direct link is below.

Link to all threads posted by myself:
[http://forum.casebook.org/search.php?searchid=544484

I try hard to make all the thread-title self-explanatory and easily searchable, so each thread-title usually includes as much pertinent info as I could cram into it. This includes the subject matter, the date, and occasionally a phrase from the article. If you look but still can't find the particular article/thread you are searching for, please feel free to PM me and I will try to help.

Best regards,
Archaic