the role of logic to us

[protohistorian]

Let me say at the outset that I am a lover of logic, and that it has a great many uses for investigators. That being said, when we evaluate motive in this case, there exists the very real possibility that logic is not our friend. The following comes from the 11th edition of Abnormal Psychology by Kring, Johnson, Davidson,and Neale. The copyright date is 2010 so I am assuming it to be current in content.
p.396 " There is a large body of work on the emotional components of psychopathy. In defining the psychopathic syndrome, Cleckley noted the inability of people with psychopathy to profit from experience or even punishment; they seem to be unable to avoid the negative consequences of social misbehavior."
In short, if the killer was a psychopathic individual, no logic of a person who receives feedback sufficient to modify his/her behavior will be helpful. Additionally, within the mind of the killer, there may not be a concrete "motive" to speak of. Respectfully Dave

[lynn cates]

logic

Hello Proto. Your observation;

"In short, if the killer was a psychopathic individual, no logic of a person who receives feedback sufficient to modify his/her behavior will be helpful. Additionally, within the mind of the killer, there may not be a concrete "motive" to speak of."

is likely on target. It seems to suggest that "Jack" was not a logical individual. Better: his reasoning did not always parallel the canons of probable inductive and valid deductive reasoning. This may well be the case.

But I wonder if that observation coincides with:

"there exists the very real possibility that logic is not our friend"?

After all, you clearly used solid inductive reasoning to arrive at the former conclusion.

The best.
LC

[protohistorian]

Hello Lynn, I believe it does in the matter of motive contemplation. It is because logic is so tremendously useful to an individual that the "natural" urge is to apply it in the case of motive resolution. If no motive was present in the mind of the killer, the result will be an incorrect conclusion on the part of the person using the logic. Logic would have mislead the thinking individual from a correct understanding by virtue of the thinkers application of it. Respectfully Dave

[lynn cates]

application, or not

Hello Proto. Excellent observation. So then we may say that applying logic is good, but one must beware MISAPPLYING it?

The best.
LC

[Scott Nelson]

Never go near it myself.

[protohistorian]

Correct! Dave, for Lynn's post, and not a dig on Scott.

[Robert]

It's true that the Ripper may have been mad, but surely we're not confronted with complete randomness here. He doesn't seem to have attacked men or children. It's women who seem to have been the target - either in a pre-meditated way or as last minute triggers.

[protohistorian]

correct Robert it is not random to be sure, but motive may not have ever been concrete in the killers mind. It may in fact be as you say, that the killings are the result of some environmental triggering event. Respectfully Dave

[Robert]

Hi Dave

Well, I suppose "motive" is a fairly vague term, unless it has some precise psychological scientific definition that I'm not aware of. If a man who bangs his thumb with a hammer lets out an expletive, I guess he doesn't have a motive for doing so. On the other hand, one can also have non-automatic behaviours that aren't due to a motive. I read that one psychologist hypnotised a second psychologist, who was disdainful of hypnotism, instructing him to walk to a certain room at a certain hour and turn a light switch on and off. The second psychologist said that as the hour approached, he grew more and more uneasy at the thought of disobeying the command, despite the fact that he knew no harmful consequences would come of not going to the room and working the switch. In the end, simply for peace of mind, he went to the room, worked the switch, and then felt better. His motive in obeying the command might have been to feel better, but there seems not to have been a motive for wanting to go to the room and work the switch in the first place.

[protohistorian]

Main Entry: 1mo·tive
Pronunciation: \ˈmō-tiv, 2 is also mō-ˈtēv\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French motif, motive, from motif, adjective, moving, from Medieval Latin motivus, from Latin motus, past participle of movēre to move
Date: 15th century
1 : something (as a need or desire) that causes a person to act Compliments of the Merriam online dictionary. Respectfully Dave

[Sam Flynn]

Maybe not "logic" in terms of how his mind operated - we'll never know that for certain - but certainly "logistics" should apply to any analysis. Unless Jack was supernatural, he'd have been bounded by the same logistical constraints and physical laws as any other person, sane or otherwise.

[perrymason]

Im not so sure you can assume here that this killer known as Jack the Ripper didnt function logically and proceed with his crimes with structured actions.

As Sam hates to hear, Phillips and Baxter's Inquest comments regarding both the Nichols and Chapman crimes both support a supposition that the murders took place so as to enable the unsub to acquire internal organs...in Annie's case, the uterus was the suspected target.

In both cases the actual event and the sequencing seems to be eerily similar....and repetitive.

To proceed from point A, a living woman with no desire to be opened up and donate organs, to point B, holding an internal organ taken from said lady, a logical progression of actions was needed to enable the killer to successfully complete his objective in close quarters, in the dark and with very little available time.

In neither case was a knife even used until the victims were unable to resist and they were on the ground....ergo, he chooses not to use the knife when it is not needed, something that a man who is employing logic might feel enables him to avoid hanging if he is caught at that particular junction or before that point.

Does he logically wait until the victims are alone before approaching them? Does he take them or follow them to a place where logic dictates they would have some measure of privacy and time alone?

It seems to me in those 2 cases, that Pollys location at the time of her murder was not a logical choice for a murder and mutilation if that was planned, but if the same man then killed Annie, he purposefully chose or accepted a more suitable and logical location to commit his second murder, since in that one he seems to acquire what he wanted.

He learned, and applied the knowledge...in a logical fashion.

If he had tried the next kill in the street again, I would question his capacities.... and ability to function logically and according to some structure for sure.

Best regards all

[Sam Flynn]

Im not so sure you can assume here that this killer known as Jack the Ripper didnt function logically and proceed with his crimes with structured actions.

As Sam hates to hear, Phillips and Baxter's Inquest comments regarding both the Nichols and Chapman crimes both support a supposition that the murders took place so as to enable the unsub to acquire internal organs...in Annie's case, the uterus was the suspected target.

In both cases the actual event and the sequencing seems to be eerily similar....and repetitive.

To proceed from point A, a living woman with no desire to be opened up and donate organs, to point B, holding an internal organ taken from said lady, a logical progression of actions was needed to enable the killer to successfully complete his objective in close quarters, in the dark and with very little available time.

In neither case was a knife even used until the victims were unable to resist and they were on the ground....ergo, he chooses not to use the knife when it is not needed, something that a man who is employing logic might feel enables him to avoid hanging if he is caught at that particular junction or before that point.

Does he logically wait until the victims are alone before approaching them? Does he take them or follow them to a place where logic dictates they would have some measure of privacy and time alone?

It seems to me in those 2 cases, that Pollys location at the time of her murder was not a logical choice for a murder and mutilation if that was planned, but if the same man then killed Annie, he purposefully chose or accepted a more suitable and logical location to commit his second murder, since in that one he seems to acquire what he wanted.

He learned, and applied the knowledge...in a logical fashion.

If he had tried the next kill in the street again, I would question his capacities.... and ability to function logically and according to some structure for sure.

This thread, I think was about logic in general, Mike - not one's application of it in respect of certain narrow aspects of the case.

[perrymason]

This thread, I think was about logic in general, Mike - not one's application of it in respect of certain narrow aspects of the case.

I dont know that logic is widely employed by many who study these crimes Gareth, so I thought addressing how logic might have been used by the killer would suffice in its absence.

My best regards