The visitors

[Phil Carter]

Hello all,

Would someone please list for me the complete list of Doctor's, Medical men, Police Surgeons, Coroners, Policemen and other Officials known to have visited 13, Miller's Court, from Nov 9th onwards? I am not referring to members of the general public .(McCarthy, Bowyer Prater for ex)
Reason for this question?... I have both heard and seen conflicting views on how many either examinedand or saw the body or entered the premises, during or after the body was there....or visited Miller's Court.
Thank you.

And does anyone know when 13 Miller's Court was FIRST occupied, with tennant, AFTER the Kelly murder?...and naturally, WHO that person was?

Thank you


best regards

Phil

[Robert]

I don't know how many visitors there were, but Kelly was in no mood to see anyone.

I've an idea that the room was let quite soon after the murder, despite reports that McCarthy had trouble finding a tenant. I can't remember where I read this.

Also there are at least two reports of people being taken to see bloodstains on the wall some time after Kelly's funeral.

[Pontius2000]

I believe the room was not rented until either April or June of the following year. I saw a post verifying this recently.


as for who went into the room, I believe Baxter Phillips and Abberline were the first to actually go into the room. McCarthy was the one who forced the door with a pick-ax. I read reports of at least 2 other constables who went into the room, and Anderson made an appearance before the body was removed. there were also many constables on the scene, guarding both entrances to the court and keeping crowds back, but I don't know if that's what you meant. also, all the jurors from the inquest were taken there to get an idea of the crime scene (well after the body was removed).

[Phil Carter]

I believe the room was not rented until either April or June of the following year. I saw a post verifying this recently.


as for who went into the room, I believe Baxter Phillips and Abberline were the first to actually go into the room. McCarthy was the one who forced the door with a pick-ax. I read reports of at least 2 other constables who went into the room, and Anderson made an appearance before the body was removed. there were also many constables on the scene, guarding both entrances to the court and keeping crowds back, but I don't know if that's what you meant. also, all the jurors from the inquest were taken there to get an idea of the crime scene (well after the body was removed).

Hello Pontius,
Thank you for your reply.

Both Pontius and Robert, thank you for the reference to when the room was let out again. If anyone can refer me to a newspaper artcle or two or more, I would appreciate this. Likewise the viewing of the bloodstains on the wall. And likewise, trying to track down the next occupant after Kelly.

Yes Pontius, you correctly surmise that the above isn't quite what I was asking for.
I need a complete list of all Doctors, medical men, Police surgeons, policemen, coroner(s), and other Officials having known to have visited 13, Miller's Court from and including 9th November onwards. As I stated, not members of the general public, because I have either read or been told of conflicting names and/or reports. Therefore I would like, if possible, a DEFINITIVE list of visitors pertaining to the above groups mentioned.

Can anyone help please?

Many thanks,

best wishes

Phil

[Robert]

Here is Chris Scott's census info. Any references to occupants between November 1888 and the 1891 census most probably came from a newspaper article.

http://forum.casebook.org/archive/index.php/t-1764.html

[Robert]

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/pall_mall_gazette/18891104.html

[Phil Carter]

http://www.casebook.org/press_report.../18891104.html

Thank you Robert,

The listing of 1891 shows a couple, aptly named Kelly, living at 13 Miller's Court, and the interview and trip around of November 4th 1889 (above), shows a couple living in Miller's Court.

13 Millers Court
Head: Thomas Kelly aged 35 born Spitalfields - Waterside labourer
Wife: Ann Kelly aged 39 born Ireland

Apart from the fact, quite stunning, that a Kelly lives in Kelly's room two and a half years later in 1891, is the fact that the wife is ANN Kelly.

I know this sounds silly, please, but indulge me...

In genealogy, I have many, many times come across the age of a person as being wrong. One of the "wrongs" I have seen before is the age being 10 years out. Suppose, and it IS just fantasy, that this Ann Kelly isn't 39, but 29. That would make her 26 in 1888.

Ann Kelly, born in Ireland, 26 in 1888. Nah.. I'm glad this is just fantasy... because it would raise a question as to whom.... or more exactly, what was the real name of the lady murdered in Miller's Court in 1888?

What are the chances of TWO (??? ) Ann Kelly's occupying the same dingy doss room within a 12 month period? If not within 2.1/2 years. (The census was taken in April 1891 was it not?)

How weird.

best wishes

Phil

[Robert]

But how much weirder, Phil, if MJK allowed people to think she was dead, allowed herself to be "buried," then returned to live in the same room a couple of years later as if nothing had happened - and no one says anything.

Nondescript was one thing MJK wasn't.

[Robert]

http://casebook.org/dissertations/rip-kit.html

I'm afraid I will never re-find the item about foreign tourists being taken to 13 room, but I've an idea that I posted it on Howard's site.

[Phil Carter]

But how much weirder, Phil, if MJK allowed people to think she was dead, allowed herself to be "buried," then returned to live in the same room a couple of years later as if nothing had happened - and no one says anything.

Nondescript was one thing MJK wasn't.

If Robert my mate, the first one WAS MJK... what if she WASNT?

best wishes


Phil

[Robert]

Forgive me if I'm being a bit slow, Phil, but I seem to have strayed into a GK Chesterton Father Brown story.

[Phil Carter]

Forgive me if I'm being a bit slow, Phil, but I seem to have strayed into a GK Chesterton Father Brown story.

Robert, I shall say nothing... not mention Spurs...nothing...lol

Seriously, thanks for the links you put up, I shall have a gander at the stuff on H's site ltr..

thanks mate

best ones

Phil

[richardnunweek]

Hello Phil,
You certainly write some good posts, and thought provoking.
Like you I am tempted to believe that there is a lot we are not aware of, the Maxwell sighting has never been proven otherwise , and it could well have been that the witness Hutchinson may have been asked to assist the police in giving more credence to a nightime slaying.
However if this was the case I would doubt a certain gentleman named GWTH, would have mentioned anything about the case, he would not have involved himself in a pack of lies, that may have involved questions being asked albeit years after the event.
Regards Richard.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Phil,
You certainly write some good posts, and thought provoking.
Like you I am tempted to believe that there is a lot we are not aware of, the Maxwell sighting has never been proven otherwise , and it could well have been that the witness Hutchinson may have been asked to assist the police in giving more credence to a nightime slaying.
However if this was the case I would doubt a certain gentleman named GWTH, would have mentioned anything about the case, he would not have involved himself in a pack of lies, that may have involved questions being asked albeit years after the event.
Regards Richard.

Hello Richard,
Thank you for your reply, and a very valid one it is too.
From what I can see, and here I refer to Chistopher Scott's Will the Real Mary Kelly...? book from 2005, the jury re GWTH is still out, as the idea falls down on the basis of the Hutchinson family being plumber after plumber, a family trade. Yet our GH is mentioned only a s a labourer... which is very strange. I believe he was also mentioned as a Groom, but where that info comes from, seems to have disappeared in the dim and distant past somewhere.

For me, the fact that George Hutchinson the witness totally disappears, and that no one, not one person, mentioned KNOWING Hutchinson..even though he had "known her for three years and wandered the streets at night"..he was in the pubs in the area.. but NO ONE knows him. That tells me, in Whitechapel, he isnt known... because he is a stranger. Thats logic.

best wishes

Phil