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I wonder if anyone can shed some light on the following from the Star newspaper, from the Wiki within Casebook.
All sentence emphasis is of my making.
The Star
LONDON. SATURDAY, 10 NOVEMBER, 1888.
After the murder of Mary Kelly,
Mr. John McCarthy, the owner of the house in Miller's-court, has given the following
FACTS AS TO THE MURDERED WOMAN.
"She was about 23 or 24 years of age, and lived with a coal porter named Kelly, passing as his wife. They, however, quarrelled some time back and separated. A woman named Harvey slept with her several nights since Kelly separated from her, but she was not with her last night. The deceased's Christian name was Mary Jane, and since her murder I have discovered that she walked the streets in the neighborhood of Aldgate. Her habits were irregular, and she often came home at night the worse for drink. Her mother lives in Ireland, but in what county I do not know. Deceased used to receive letters from her occasionally." McCarthy adds that when he looked through the window, after Bowyer called him, he saw on the table what seemed to be lumps of flesh. When the police inspector came he sent a telegram to Sir Charles Warren
Then later in a special edition... an article not attributed to McCarthy
THE VICTIM.
The woman murdered in Spitalfields yesterday was born in Limerick, her name being Marie Jeanette Kelly. Her parents removed from Limerick to Carmarthen, and here the deceased married a collier whose name is believed to be Davies. He, however, was killed in a colliery explosion, and the deceased woman then lived an ill life at Cardiff, afterwards removing to London. Her parents are still living in Wales.
then...in the Evening news.. the interview with Caroline Maxwell.
Evening News
London, U.K.
10 November 1888
Mrs. Caroline Mapwell,(sic) of 14 Dorset street, the wife of a night watchman at Commercial Chambers, a common lodging house able to shelter 244 persons, and which is opposite the scene of the murder, said: "I have known the murdered woman well for the past six months. This (Friday) morning, as near as possible about half past eight, I saw Mary Jane (the murdered woman) standing outside the court. I said, "What brings you out so early, Mary Jane," and she answered, "I feel very queer. I cannot sleep. I have the horrors of the drink on me, as I have been drinking this last day or two." I said, "Well, I pity you, " and passed on. I then went to Bishopsgate; and on my return, just after nine o'clock, I saw Mary Jane talking to a man at the end of the street. Who he was I do not know. He was a short, stout man, about fifty years of age. I did not notice what he had on, but I saw that he wore a kind of plaid coat. I then went indoors to go to bed, as I had been on duty all night. Mary Jane (I only know her by that name) was a pleasant little woman, rather stout, fair complexion, and rather pale. I should say her age was be about 23. I had no idea she was an unfortunate, for I never saw her with any one, nor have I ever seen her drunk. She was a very quiet young woman, and had been in the neighbourhood about two years. She spoke with a kind of impediment. She belonged, I think, to Limerick, and had evidently been well connected.
then, same newspaper, same day
JOSEPH BARNET'S STATEMENT
Joseph Barnet, an Irishman, at present residing in a common lodging house in New street, Bishopsgate, stated that he had occupied his present lodgings since Tuesday week. Previous to that he had lived in Miller's court, Dorset street, for eight or nine months with the murdered woman, Mary Jane Kelly. They were very happy and comfortable until another woman came to sleep in their room, to which he strongly objected. Finally, after the woman had been there two or three nights, he quarrelled with Kelly, and left her. The next day, however, he returned, and have her money. He called several other days, and gave her money when he had it. On Thursday night he visited her between half past seven and eight, and told her he was sorry he had no money to give her. He saw nothing more of her. He was indoors when he heard that a woman had been murdered in Dorset street, but voluntarily went to the police, who after questioning him, satisfied themselves that his statements were correct, and therefore released him. Barnet believed Kelly was an Irishwoman.
Now... I KNOW that we must be very wary of newspaper reports. I know. But can I ask you all to for a short while, believe the following from the FIRST statement by McCarthy...
She was about 23 or 24 years of age, and lived with a coal porter named Kelly, passing as his wife......The deceased's Christian name was Mary Jane....I have discovered that she walked the streets in the neighborhood of Aldgate......Her mother lives in Ireland, but in what county I do not know. Deceased used to receive letters from her occasionally."
Right. That tells me this. KELLY was NOT her last name. It is an assumed name. She wasn't about 25, she was 23 or 24. Her mother lived in Ireland, (father not mentioned) NOT in Wales. She used to GET LETTERS from her mother. Err, surely if you put those two things together, the letters were from Ireland? Or is that presumption crazy?
Now believe Mrs Maxwells statement....
"I have known the murdered woman well for the past six months....Mary Jane (I only know her by that name) was a pleasant little woman, rather stout, fair complexion, and rather pale. I should say her age was be about 23....She spoke with a kind of impediment. She belonged, I think, to Limerick, and had evidently been well connected.
That tells me she was 23, known for 6 months, and that her name was Mary Jane. Spoke with a kind of impediment? What kind of impediment? That tells me that this woman was recognisable by her infliction.
Now believe Joseph Barnets statement...
.....he had lived in Miller's court, Dorset street, for eight or nine months with the murdered woman, Mary Jane Kelly.....Barnet believed Kelly was an Irishwoman.
Compare that with the lines from Casebook...
Joseph met Mary Jane Kelly on April 8th, 1887, and the two decided soon after to room together at various locations for the next year and a half. By the time of the Ripper murders, they were living in 13 Miller's Court, Dorset Street.
Now, in the press statement, Barnet said he LIVED with her for 8 or 9 months and only BELIEVED her to be Irish? Umm, After 8 or 9 months living together, you KNOW if someone is Irish or not. It would be a fact. Not a belief.
That to me, is a very strange comment. Put that together with the Casebook comment, having known her since April 1887 (17 months)....and the statement is VERY odd...he KNOWS that he is a very, very close source of info for the police and the press. So why just say he believed her to be Irish? Perhaps I am Nit-picking... but what if I'm not?...
These things tell me a possibility.
Mary Jane (BLANK), came from Limerick, her mother lived in Ireland. She was 23, spoke with a speech impediment, was known in the area, "worked Aldgate" (shades of Catharine Eddowes, Mitre Square, calling herself Mary Jane Kelly?) and, and it is a possibility, that Eddowes KNEW Mary Jane. Did they "work" the same patch?
I KNOW this is speculation. I know there are hundreds of newspaper reports with different details. But what if these details are true?
It means that Mary Jane Kelly WASN'T her name. It was her known name. Her age is 23 NOT 25. She was recognisable from a speech impediment. People would know who Mary Jane was because of that in the pubs. As soon as she opens her mouth to talk, she is different, and stands out. And Eddowes using an assumed name of Mary Jane Kelly in the same area Kelly "worked" her trade, is, to me, a bell ringer for her knowing Mary.
And Barnet not KNOWING with certainty that "Kelly" was Irish, is very very odd.
best wishes
Phil
All sentence emphasis is of my making.
The Star
LONDON. SATURDAY, 10 NOVEMBER, 1888.
After the murder of Mary Kelly,
Mr. John McCarthy, the owner of the house in Miller's-court, has given the following
FACTS AS TO THE MURDERED WOMAN.
"She was about 23 or 24 years of age, and lived with a coal porter named Kelly, passing as his wife. They, however, quarrelled some time back and separated. A woman named Harvey slept with her several nights since Kelly separated from her, but she was not with her last night. The deceased's Christian name was Mary Jane, and since her murder I have discovered that she walked the streets in the neighborhood of Aldgate. Her habits were irregular, and she often came home at night the worse for drink. Her mother lives in Ireland, but in what county I do not know. Deceased used to receive letters from her occasionally." McCarthy adds that when he looked through the window, after Bowyer called him, he saw on the table what seemed to be lumps of flesh. When the police inspector came he sent a telegram to Sir Charles Warren
Then later in a special edition... an article not attributed to McCarthy
THE VICTIM.
The woman murdered in Spitalfields yesterday was born in Limerick, her name being Marie Jeanette Kelly. Her parents removed from Limerick to Carmarthen, and here the deceased married a collier whose name is believed to be Davies. He, however, was killed in a colliery explosion, and the deceased woman then lived an ill life at Cardiff, afterwards removing to London. Her parents are still living in Wales.
then...in the Evening news.. the interview with Caroline Maxwell.
Evening News
London, U.K.
10 November 1888
Mrs. Caroline Mapwell,(sic) of 14 Dorset street, the wife of a night watchman at Commercial Chambers, a common lodging house able to shelter 244 persons, and which is opposite the scene of the murder, said: "I have known the murdered woman well for the past six months. This (Friday) morning, as near as possible about half past eight, I saw Mary Jane (the murdered woman) standing outside the court. I said, "What brings you out so early, Mary Jane," and she answered, "I feel very queer. I cannot sleep. I have the horrors of the drink on me, as I have been drinking this last day or two." I said, "Well, I pity you, " and passed on. I then went to Bishopsgate; and on my return, just after nine o'clock, I saw Mary Jane talking to a man at the end of the street. Who he was I do not know. He was a short, stout man, about fifty years of age. I did not notice what he had on, but I saw that he wore a kind of plaid coat. I then went indoors to go to bed, as I had been on duty all night. Mary Jane (I only know her by that name) was a pleasant little woman, rather stout, fair complexion, and rather pale. I should say her age was be about 23. I had no idea she was an unfortunate, for I never saw her with any one, nor have I ever seen her drunk. She was a very quiet young woman, and had been in the neighbourhood about two years. She spoke with a kind of impediment. She belonged, I think, to Limerick, and had evidently been well connected.
then, same newspaper, same day
JOSEPH BARNET'S STATEMENT
Joseph Barnet, an Irishman, at present residing in a common lodging house in New street, Bishopsgate, stated that he had occupied his present lodgings since Tuesday week. Previous to that he had lived in Miller's court, Dorset street, for eight or nine months with the murdered woman, Mary Jane Kelly. They were very happy and comfortable until another woman came to sleep in their room, to which he strongly objected. Finally, after the woman had been there two or three nights, he quarrelled with Kelly, and left her. The next day, however, he returned, and have her money. He called several other days, and gave her money when he had it. On Thursday night he visited her between half past seven and eight, and told her he was sorry he had no money to give her. He saw nothing more of her. He was indoors when he heard that a woman had been murdered in Dorset street, but voluntarily went to the police, who after questioning him, satisfied themselves that his statements were correct, and therefore released him. Barnet believed Kelly was an Irishwoman.
Now... I KNOW that we must be very wary of newspaper reports. I know. But can I ask you all to for a short while, believe the following from the FIRST statement by McCarthy...
She was about 23 or 24 years of age, and lived with a coal porter named Kelly, passing as his wife......The deceased's Christian name was Mary Jane....I have discovered that she walked the streets in the neighborhood of Aldgate......Her mother lives in Ireland, but in what county I do not know. Deceased used to receive letters from her occasionally."
Right. That tells me this. KELLY was NOT her last name. It is an assumed name. She wasn't about 25, she was 23 or 24. Her mother lived in Ireland, (father not mentioned) NOT in Wales. She used to GET LETTERS from her mother. Err, surely if you put those two things together, the letters were from Ireland? Or is that presumption crazy?
Now believe Mrs Maxwells statement....
"I have known the murdered woman well for the past six months....Mary Jane (I only know her by that name) was a pleasant little woman, rather stout, fair complexion, and rather pale. I should say her age was be about 23....She spoke with a kind of impediment. She belonged, I think, to Limerick, and had evidently been well connected.
That tells me she was 23, known for 6 months, and that her name was Mary Jane. Spoke with a kind of impediment? What kind of impediment? That tells me that this woman was recognisable by her infliction.
Now believe Joseph Barnets statement...
.....he had lived in Miller's court, Dorset street, for eight or nine months with the murdered woman, Mary Jane Kelly.....Barnet believed Kelly was an Irishwoman.
Compare that with the lines from Casebook...
Joseph met Mary Jane Kelly on April 8th, 1887, and the two decided soon after to room together at various locations for the next year and a half. By the time of the Ripper murders, they were living in 13 Miller's Court, Dorset Street.
Now, in the press statement, Barnet said he LIVED with her for 8 or 9 months and only BELIEVED her to be Irish? Umm, After 8 or 9 months living together, you KNOW if someone is Irish or not. It would be a fact. Not a belief.
That to me, is a very strange comment. Put that together with the Casebook comment, having known her since April 1887 (17 months)....and the statement is VERY odd...he KNOWS that he is a very, very close source of info for the police and the press. So why just say he believed her to be Irish? Perhaps I am Nit-picking... but what if I'm not?...
These things tell me a possibility.
Mary Jane (BLANK), came from Limerick, her mother lived in Ireland. She was 23, spoke with a speech impediment, was known in the area, "worked Aldgate" (shades of Catharine Eddowes, Mitre Square, calling herself Mary Jane Kelly?) and, and it is a possibility, that Eddowes KNEW Mary Jane. Did they "work" the same patch?
I KNOW this is speculation. I know there are hundreds of newspaper reports with different details. But what if these details are true?
It means that Mary Jane Kelly WASN'T her name. It was her known name. Her age is 23 NOT 25. She was recognisable from a speech impediment. People would know who Mary Jane was because of that in the pubs. As soon as she opens her mouth to talk, she is different, and stands out. And Eddowes using an assumed name of Mary Jane Kelly in the same area Kelly "worked" her trade, is, to me, a bell ringer for her knowing Mary.
And Barnet not KNOWING with certainty that "Kelly" was Irish, is very very odd.
best wishes
Phil
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