Just for the Jolly

[Phil Carter]

What doesn't add up is a senior official from the post office getting in on the act. I reiterate - what on earth was he doing there, if not to have a good gawp like the rest of the crowd?

And, again, nowhere does it say that any of these dignitaries actually entered 13 Miller's Court.

Hello again,

No...nobody KNOWS if they entered the building Sam. And we don't know they DIDN'T either.
BUT, the newspapers REPORTED THREE distinct individuals there at the scene.
Not just anyone, not any old Irish copper, not any old Post Office worker, not any old Political person, but a SENIOR Post Office Official, A representative of The Royal Irish Constabulary ( I think we can safely presume a high ranking officer), and a member of her majesty's parliament.

These THREE, amongst the many who must have come to the place. They stick out like a sore thumb in Dorset Street!

Exactly. It DOESN'T add up the a senior Post Office Official was there at all!
You asked what he was doing there... I say that he was asked, because for some reason he was ASKED to be there. Likewise the Royal Irish Constabulary.

I pose this point from a different angle.

WHY aren't these people, OBVIOUSLY recognised by the London Press, NAMED??? There is no reason not to is there?

If in a crowd to gawp, then the press have no reason NOT to name them.
If the press had been asked not to for any reason, then why mention them, as a group, being there at all?

I see no particular line of connection with any clarity here, thats not why I am wondering. But IF Sam, IF, there was a Fenian interest in some way, (as you must admit the Police backgrounds themselves are riddled with an Irish connection and the work against the Fenians), then it CAN explain two of the three. The RIC and the MP.

Thats why I cannot see The Post Office guy there for no reason. Having a gawp is just too easy! It doesn't ring true in my view.

And nobody ever visited the other, later murder sites did they? Not as far as I can recall. No "special gawpers" there, as with the 4/5 previous to Millers Court! I cannot remember ONE unusual person turning up reported in the press after the event.

SO WHY JUST THIS ONE???

I apologise if I am wrong, but I believe that all other visitors to this and all other murders were people directly connected to the case. I dont mean the usual crowds Sam, I mean dignitaries. THERE AREN'T any ...are there?
So why here, at 13 Miller's Court, in broad daylight? Not exactly a subtle, mix in with the crowd thing is it?

with all respect

best wishes

Phil

[Sam Flynn]

Hello, Phil

No...nobody KNOWS if they entered the building Sam. And we don't know they DIDN'T either.

The problem is that those with a conspiratorial bent tend to assert - as fact - that they did. That's bad form.

BUT, the newspapers REPORTED THREE distinct individuals there at the scene.

Amongst many, many others.

It DOESN'T add up the a senior Post Office Official was there at all!
You asked what he was doing there... I say that he was asked, because for some reason he was ASKED to be there.

Why on earth would one have asked a senior post office chappie to attend a Late Victorian crime scene?

A thought experiment:

The "Joseph Merrick Show" opens in the East End, and the newspapers report that, amongst scores of other visitors, a senior police officer, an MP and the Postmaster General were spotted going in through the entrance. Some suggest that they had been asked to attend in an official capacity, others that they wanted to gawk at the latest freakish sensation to whet the palates of the thrill-seeking Victorian public.

Which is more likely?

[Phil Carter]

Hello Sam/Gareth,

The PostMaster General eh? Thats new to me.. didnt know it was him! Thank you!! Isnt it lovely that although I spend days asking about this situation, with no replies, people STILL know things and dont tell me. Cheers!---anyhow..

ok.. here we go.. something that I kindly ask you to quietly consider to be possible... NOT certain, maybe probable. Please let these things collate together. And please be prepared to change your view. IF that is possible...and I am NOT taking the mick...you do have a small name for stubborness you know...(I say that respectfully, honest!)

1) 4 years before, in 1884, Mary's Mum apparently goes back to Ireland because her father died.

2) Mary's mother send's letters to her..proven by 2 testimonies... McCarthy's statement and a City Missionary, who has DISCUSSED the letters with Mary and knows her well. We don't know WHEN the letters were sent though.
The Missionary has been in the area 7 years. Since 1881.
Mary, according to McCarthy and others, tells that she never communicates with her family.

3) Mary was living at Pennington Road (correct me if Im wrong here) and her friend imforms us that Mary is trying to avoid her father, who has come to London to search for her.

4) Dad presumably doesnt meet Mary..(we hear of nothing like that from anyone)

5) Mary tells Joe that she has a brother in the Scots Guards 2nd Batallion. Also that she has x amount of siblings.

9th Nov..Mary is murdered. Straight away, the police are trying to trace the family she said she had.

10th November, 3 dignitaries, and I use that word on purpose, turn up at Miller's Court in the crowd. We do NOT know they went in, we do NOT know they didnt. Those men, an MP,(possibly the Coroner who was an MP), The PostMaster General, and someone from the Royal Irish Constabulary, are noticed by the Press.

a) A person from the Royal Irish Constabulary would NOT be known by the London press UNLESS, he was either very well known OR had a uniform on.
He is reconised as a member of the RIC. Period.
b) The PostMaster General, who IS well known, is recognised. We do not know if he had a uniform on. BUT IT IS THE LORD MAYOR'S PARADE..so we can presume he DID have a uniform on. Howvever, HE is recognised by his TITLE anyway. Otherwise they wouldnt call him that in the press. PERIOD.
c) An MP NEVER wears a uniform unless he is militarily connected. So we can safely presume he wasn't wearing one. Therefore he is recognised for WHOM he is.

with me so far?--ok--- follow on---it's all so straight forward and simple...

Scenario...

Mary's mother, leaves Wales in 1884 and attends her father's funeral. She tries to inform Mary by letter. She recieves NO REPLY..re McCarthy and others...she doesnt communicate with her family)
Dad is communicated with by Mum...I have rec'd no reply from Mary, go to London and tell her the news of her grandfather. He tries to find Mary... she avoids him.

Mary moves around and ends up in Miller's Court, having talked to 2 independant people about letter(s) from her Mum in Ireland.
Mary dies, the police need to find her family. They talk to McCarthy, and Barnett and others. They are informed she is Irish, letters from Mum etc.
The RIC comes to 13, Millers Court with the PostMaster General. WHY???

TO SEE IF THE LETTERS THAT HAVE BEEN TALKED ABOUT HAVE AN ADRESS ON THEM...SO THAT THEY CAN CONTACT HER MOTHER, AND TO FIND OUT IF HER BROTHER IS MENTIONED IN THE LETTER, as she has told others about him!!!! The 2nd Battalion is stationed in Dublin, is it not at this time?? (forgive me if I am wrong)
Why the PostPerson?, to confirm the letters were sent on an Irish postmark (not all postmarks are clear, many are overstamped and smudged) and why the RIC? To relay the news back to Dublin to set in motuion inquiries in Limerick/Ireland..wherever the address was etc etc .

Obviously, the letters, DIDNT have a return addie on the letter head or the envelope. Why? Because they cannot trace anyone in IRELAND. Because they have NO address, because the letter(s) didnt contain the info required. Ditto the mention of her brother.

Now. That, matey peeps, is obvious, logical and perfectly NORMAL..You yourself said that you wouldnt be surprised to see a representative of the RIC there, ditto The PostMaster General because of the Lord Mayor's parade.
The police chiefs KNEW who was at Lord Mayor's parade. They knew this... every dignitary in town is around...so they got hold of them, and were just doing their work...trying to track down a relative. THATS why they turned up at 13, Miller's Court. !!!!!

Its perfectly NORMAL and logical. Its called Police work. Period.

And it is a far better reason for them being there than gawping in a crowd and sticking out like a sore thumb! No-- for the likes of these three...it WASN'T a side show. There is no record, as far as I know, of any such person turning up at any murder site in any of the previous or subsequent murders. No MP's G...none... strange that with 650 of them just up the road in Westminster and NONE of them come along to have a butcher's... but just one does at one murder site accompanied by the other two noted personalities!!! If your argument is correct, every Tom Dick and Harry with a title would have succumbed to human nature on that day... ALL the dignitaries of London were around! Do we hear of any more famous gawpers? NO. Not as far as I know.

I have a TREMENDOUS respect for you G, honestly. But really, as on some other occasions I have seen, your (with respect) stubborness to be right and not see the entirely obvious is very unfortunate. I am NOT being facetious, taking the mick or putting you down...but this time G, The reason outways your argument. Easily. And you are wrong. Sorry, The "famous-gawper-that just-happened-to-be-in-London-and trotted-off-for-a-butcher's-at-Miller's Court-in-broad-daylight-theory", is wrong. I'm sorry. No offence.

with ALL respect,

and best wishes

Phil



PS.. for all unaquainted with, and those not familiar with London slang..
a "butcher's" is Cockney rhyming slang..
Butcher's Hook...a look... to "take a butcher's".. translated means to
"take a look".. with apologies to my friends from across the pond etc.

Respectfully, Phil.

[Phil Carter]

..... a senior police officer, an MP and the Postmaster General were spotted ....

P.S.

I was told it was an MP... if it was a senior policeman G...then bingo... please come down and have a look at this will you...you may be able to help us...

best wishes

Phil

PPS.. PLEASE someone, find the relavant newspaper clips..the more the merrier..so that we can see exactly WHAT was reported? Thank you-Phil

[perrymason]

Since analogies that have nothing to do with the question at hand seem to creep into some threads, its best that I post again the mix that appeared at the beginning of the week following Mary Janes murder.....

It was a (1) Senior Post Official, a few Members of Parliament, and a few of The Royal Irish Constabulary.

As far as I can see, none of those 3 disparate groups had anything to do with the investigation of Mary Jane Kellys murder.....as we understand it. Yet they visited the courtyard while Dorset St was full of onlookers. Which would seem to suggest that they did have reasons to see the crime scene that necessitated seeing it even while throngs of people who really werent fond of Members of Parliament, or the Police, pressed in around them.

They went at the height of the crowds there,.....not when they could visit is as a "tourist" without the crowds.

Cheers all

[Maggyann]

I'm supposed to be going to bed and here I am still!

The Irish thing rang a bell in my muddled head so I have been looking in my old notebooks etc from long ago...

One of the Pheonix Park accused and eventually hung was Tim Kelly aged about 19/20 and a trainee coachmaker with George Magill of 13/14 Redmonds Hill Terenure, Tim lived at 12 Redmonds Hill with his mother and family.

I never did manage to find anything out about this Kelly family.

Then there was something about a young Kelly lad almost being involved in some 'plot' involving a Sgt Sullivan of the police.

Just thought I'd mention these two things. My notes were in pencil and are faded a bit now and I can't remember where I was going with it all but as this thread was about Irish connections I thought I'd stick this in. It may be stuff you all already know if so sorry.

I suppose there is a chance thet MJK could be related in some way to these other Kellys?

[perrymason]

Hi Maggyann,

If in fact Mary Janes surname was Kelly....(something along with her history by Barnett that if true has made her impossible to identify historically),... she may well have been related to other Kellys in London or elsewhere in the UK.

Although the thread has taken an Irish slant, my fault, its for any ideas that people have rattling around and were perhaps too intimidated to suggest them on more contentious fact based threads.

All the best Maggyann

[Phil Carter]

Hello all,

I figure we spend enough time beating the realities to death that we dont often take time to enjoy some of the more wild and fanciful theorizing.....some of which might actually contain some workable ideas.

So I figure Ill take the initial bath on this,.....but anyone who has an idea that they have been percolating on is more than welcome to suggest it on this thread. Its intended for the ideas that will get you slapped on the wrist for in other threads. Its doesnt have to have all the i's dotted and t's crossed...just some general ideas are fine...Im curious about the imaginative side of this study.

Heres one of mine......an Irish filament that runs right through some of the killings, connected either indirectly or directly with the Fenian assassination plot on Lord Balfour that was foiled apparently by English investigators on the continent, not on English soil, and the Post Office Robbery that was assumed to be a Fenian operation that happened the same weekend as "The Double Event". Senior Investigators with extensive Fenian backgrounds, Anderson, Abberline and others were probably working both sets of cases. Catherine Eddowes had a relationship with Conway and he has strong Irish ties, and Mary Kelly supposedly has some of her own. The events that started the Ripper scare were not connected with these crimes, but they offered an opportunity for the self rule Irishmen who were plotting political assassinations and perhaps pulling off robberies to finance it, to enthrall the local authorities and monopolize the use of their resources, money and manpower.

Using that as the basis I suggest that Polly and Annie are the Ripper victims, Liz Stride is killed in a domestic event of some kind, and Kate and Mary are killed because of their knowledge of some of these Fenian activities. They are killed in a manner which suggests that they were killed by, and for the same reasons, as the lone man that killed the first 2, purposefully.

Kate Eddowes was set-up...perhaps by Police who were sympathetic to the Fenian cause, and Mary perhaps because she had in her possession evidence of a Fenian crime. That evidence may be as innocuous as some stamps, which were burned on the "low" fire. That might also explain why the week following Marys murder, on the same day a few Members of Parliament, a Senior Post Office official, and some members of the Royal Irish Constabulary visited room 13.

Thats my imaginative exploration of a possible story for the crimes.......anyone else.............he says with a smirk?

All the best folks

Hi Mike,

Have just re read the excellent book, Will the Real Mary Kelly.... by Christopher Scott..., and again Philip Sugden's excellent The Complete History of JTR.... (again) and have looked into the possibilities you put together, in conjunction with both your idea, and my idea re the letters to Mary from her mother and the strange visitors to Miller's Court.

Ok... on the same basis as you put down in your original posting, how's this...

Eddowes, you put forward, is a set up, .perhaps by Police who were sympathetic to the Fenian cause as you put it. She had a relationship with Conway, with definitive Irish ties. Tie in that she registers her name at Bishopsgate Police Station as Mary Kelly. Tie in that McCarthy states that she works her beat in Aldgate. Tie in that Eddowes in murdered in Aldgate, which is a small area in itself. Tie in that the beat of the policemen is apparently very regular, once every 15mins...

Tie in the fact that George Morris, the nightwatchman of the offices of Kearly and Tonge's, is an ex Met policeman. and he says himself, to the press,
"The strangest part of the whole thing, is that I heard no sound. As a rule I can hear the footstep of the policeman as he passes by once every quarter of an hour, so the woman could not have uttered any cry without my detecting it.

Tie in that PC Pearce LIVED in Mitre Square, at No.3.. and he and his wife slept soundly through it all.

Tie in the fact that when you walk down church passage, you are looking DIRECTLY at "Eddowes corner", Church passage is dark.. Now when you walk down a dark tunnel, or passage, when it is dark, Looking straight ahead, into a courtyard, must be lighter. And you are staring STRAIGHT at the spot where Eddowes is killed. No one, goes in or out of Church passage while the murder is occuring. No one comes from any other direction either! Err.... why not? If, as you say, it's a set up... it's possible that each entrance and exit was guarded...by as you say in your theory, a Policeman.

Tie in the testimony that George Morris, had about two minutes (the door had been left open about that long) before PC Watkins had arrived, from Mitre Street, had gone to the door to look into the square, "two moments" before PC Watkins called to him from as Morris was working only about "two yards" inside the door.

Tie in that George Clapp the caretaker, sleeping at the back of Hydemanns, which overlooked the site, heard nothing. He didnt even hear the next 3 hours of coming and going by the police!

Tie in that PC Harvey was at the entrance to Church Passage at the end of the time the Ripper was doing his thing,

If it is a set upummmm, hang on... does Jack the Ripper have to GO DOWN any passage to kill Eddowes, does he have to meet her and escort her there????... No.. he COULD ALREADY BE THERE WAITING COULN'T HE? After all, we are talking of a set up scenario aren't we?

And what can be concluded from this proposed set up scenario?

If that is a set up... someone, if not all the policemen and an ex policeman..is lying....Or... something very important is left out.

George Morris left the door open for two minutes. Only at the time that Watkins called him, was he working two yards away. Those two minutes gave the killer time to make an escape THROUGH K&T's... The door was left open for him.- by Morris.

Now what has all this to do with Mary Kelly?

Err...wasn't the area of Dorset St sealed off because of the Lord Mayor's parade?... and IF, as Christopher Scott points out, the murder of "Mary Kelly" in Miller's could have been at 8 in the morning... guess who is guarding the entrance and exit of Dorset Street?

Now, umm, that means it could well have been a set up too....

I am going to throw this into the bath...

The Secret Dept Files are closed in perpituity. To quote SPE on one of my earlier threads, even those historians trying to research the Fenian problem come up against this brick wall. Err...what better place to hide the facts? That is IF there is an Irish connection?

How's that Mike?


best wishes

Phil

[perrymason]

Hi Phil,

The feeling that I have regarding this Irish connection somehow weaving its way into the Ripper cases via Mary Jane and perhaps Kate is just that....a feeling. We do have as you point out some interesting features of Mitre Square, the man that Lawende saw with Kate might well have told her, "Go on in luv, hes waiting to talk to you in the Square"....but the timing is so tight on this murder I hesitate to dismiss that "sailor man". I agree with a point you made, I dont think Harvey went down Church Lane to look into the Square,.... that may be just him catching up on his beat, maybe he decided to skip that look in at around quarter to one because Watkins covers it, or maybe he did go in but not as far as the square. Maybe he was told to pass it on that particular loop.

The killer had to be in there or just leaving, and it stands to reason he wouldnt have exited via the passage Watkins was just entering...so he leaves via the carriageway to Mitre Street or via Church Passage.

Kate uses the name Mary Ann Kelly of Fashion St I believe at the station, after using Jane Kelly of Dorset St within the previous 24 hours to hawk the boots.

To me that suggests she was making up different versions of someone whom she knew. If thats the Irish Link....I wouldnt be surprised.

Cheers Phil.

[curious]

Hi, Michael,
Thanks for a thread where creative license is allowed!

About the Fenian angle -- very interesting, but I'm wondering about Phil's post thinking that Eddowes might have been killed by policemen sympathetic to the Fenian cause. If she had Irish ties, would it not have been more likely the police were unsympathetic to the Fenian Cause?

Now -- my views (at this time and always subject to change) are that if the Ripper victims ARE related in anyway to the Fenian situation, then Eddowes was killed as a mistake for Mary Jane Kelly, who was perhaps actually involved in the Fenian cause.

Eddowes was in jail and gave her name as Mary Jane Kelly, who was a person of interest to those opposed to the Fenian cause. Her name was known, not what she looked like.

While she was locked up, word of her whereabouts was sent to the powers-that-be that Mary Jane Kelly was jailed, but would soon be released.

The assassin was sent and Eddowes was released, and very soon was dead.

Her pockets were all turned out because it was believed she would have letters (say from "her mother") that would have information about what the Fenians were planning. (Was this not the same night as the Post Office Robbery? -- I have not yet located information on the robbery, so don't know enough to know if the robbery was Fenian related)

Well, they got nothing because they had Eddowes, not Kelly.

In an attempt to make Eddowes appear to be a Jack the Ripper victim, the assassin "over compensated" or outdid even the Ripper himself.

(By the way, if there was an active Fenian plot operating in the East End at that time -- some of the other murders -- and the subsequent coverage in the Irish newspapers -- could have been a device to pull police and public attention away from Fenian activities)

Now to Kelly -- It has been said by some that Kelly did not belong in White Chapel. Just a few years earlier she was working in a much posher area.

Also, I believe I recall that she was an artist. It seems almost certain that she had very strong Irish ties -- a military brother and a mother in Dublin.

Perhaps she was a Mata Hari type and was in the East End because that's where the Fenian activity was.

Living with Joe Barnett was a nice cover for her, but as things heated to a fever pitch, she broke things off with him so he would not know what was really going on.

Perhaps the messages from her mother were suspected of being coded missives and that's what Eddowes assassin was looking for when he turned out all her pockets.

The man Kelly was spotted with who was dressed too richly for the neighborhood was a Fenian contact come to tell her she was in danger and needed to get away. They went into her room at Millers Court to "make it look good." then split, but forgot to take the letters or whatever the evidence was?

Remember that in Kelly's death, there is much discrepancy about sightings after she was said to be dead.

Perhaps Kelly and her Fenian friend were getting her someplace safe, then realized she'd forgotten the evidence.

Kelly's girlfriend who had been staying there with her came in and went to bed (folded clothes on chair indicate this). The killer, knowing where the Fenian supporter lives and seeing a woman in bed, believes he has the right woman this time.

When Kelly returned to her room around 8 and saw her friend had been sliced and diced, she was vomiting and was seen by a friend.

She had returned to get the evidence and was to meet her friend later.

Kelly was seen a couple of times after that, including around 10 or thereabout with a man in a checked coat who asked her if she was ok with what he had asked of her.

Now, either the man in the checked coat killed Mary Jane Kelly, or the woman in the room was Mary Jane Kelly's friend so mutilated she could not be recognized.

Perhaps the mutilation was so bad because she could not give the killer the information he was looking for, or he was furious that once again, he'd gotten the wrong woman and was sending a message to the real Kelly, or again, he was over compensating as he tried to make it appear she was a Ripper victim and thus disguise the real reason for the murder.

So, perhaps the real Mary Kelly saw the "handwriting on the wall" and vanished -- with a little help from her friends.


Other "creative" possibiliites to follow

curious (about everything)

[Sam Flynn]

I have a TREMENDOUS respect for you G, honestly. But really, as on some other occasions I have seen, your (with respect) stubborness to be right and not see the entirely obvious

The "entirely obvious" in this context is that they, among countless others not even mentioned, were having a good old-fashioned ogle the most sensational crime-scene in the Ripper series. And, by crime-scene, I do not necessarily mean 13 Miller's Court. One would think the way the conspiratorially-minded amongst us bang on about it that these VIPs (and a postman!) trooped into Kelly's room and sniffed around. Nowhere, I repeat nowhere, is it stated that they did this - in fact, the only time this episode is mentioned is in the context of the throngs who had gathered in Dorset Street to... erm... have a good old-fashioned ogle.

I'm not stubborn, Phil - it's just that I have a rather modest appetite for sensationalism. Which is more than can be said of the Victorians.

[Phil Carter]

Hello G,
We shall agree to differ... I think the word disagree is bordering on the sensational at times

Please, seriously, I have no problem with common sense, and to be fair, yes, you DO show great amounts of common sense, and OF COURSE I can see the "normal" way of looking at things.

But as you have probably read on one of the other threads, I believe JTR has been used.... used so much that the industry JTR is bigger than the crimes. Its a money making machine, of which you, I and countless others are wrapped up in whether we approve or not.

And if one talks of sensationalism, there hasn't been many films or documentaries entirely based on plain facts about JTR... more Hollywood than Cricklewood, as Eric Morecambe once turned around.

Back to the point... I KNOW it doesn't state Mr.Postie and the gang went IN to Miller's Court. But I maintain that the possibility of that unholy trio of jobs points, striongly, with background of MJK's past, in letters, to be sound reasoning, based on Police work. That isnt sensationalistic. I am a boring old fart..I should know.lol

best wishes

Phil

[curious]

Michael,

You mentioned that this thread is for other "creative solutions" and not just the Irish connection.

Here tis:

Early on, from the known suspects, William Bury became my choice to be Jack the Ripper.

At first, it was just because reading his information, it was an aha! moment. The more I study the crimes, the more I'm inclined in that direction -- but certainly there are other pulls -- among the KNOWN suspects.

Bury appeared to think himself to be JtR. He must have had his reasons.

From the git-go, I was struck by the "fact" that Nichols, Chapman and Stride all had "recently acquired" items.

In Mrs. Perfect's biography of Bury, she mentioned that he sold pencils and trinkets at one point. She was also the one who had him selling sawdust, but he was fired by James Martin in March 1888 because he brought in no money. There's no mention of what work he was doing at the time of his marriage.

However, his wife bought him a pony and cart for "his business."

Just before he and his wife went to Wolverhampton on holiday, he had new business cards printed. Likely to "impress" people he would be meeting, but perhaps he was expanding his business, whatever it was.

He also appeared to have taken an "office" because his business address was different from the residence address (most of this is from one of Mrs. Perfect's posts. {So you see, if her information is faulty, well . . . .})

So, with a business address, he had somewhere to hide his trophies. Somewhere the wife wouldn't know what was going on with him.

I also liked her idea of his stabling his cart and pony in Whitechapel and that being a base for him to "sleep off" his drunks, or clean up after one of the murders. He would have become part of the landscape there and would not be noticeable, spending the night after too much drinking. Just the usual.

In fact, Polly Nichols was killed directly in front of the stables for the Board School I believe. The stable doors were locked and bolted from the inside (by whom? do we know? I know nothing about how stables work, so would love to have someone tell me)

So, what if Bury was expanding his business to include trinkets and furbelows which he was hawking there in Whitechapel? (Again, Mrs. Perfect posted that something had been located to put him in Whitechapel. Someone else said there was no proof Bury was ever in Whitechapel, living as he did in Bow) Bury was using his wife's money mostly on drink and perhaps prostitutes, but perhaps also on trinketsi.

Can't you just see him flattering Polly Nichols with the hat: "It's you, love. I just can't see anyone else in that."

Even if she couldn't pay, well, "take it, love. You're good for it." wink

"But this has to be our little secret. You can't tell anyone or I'd never make another penny."

Without there being a reason for Polly not to tell, I think if the hat had been a gift from a man, likely everyone would have known.

So, Polly had her jolly bonnet. (I know, she would have stolen it). Annie Chapman had her rings (which were stolen from her).

Liz Stride had her large piece of green velvet (and had worked in the house, so had money to pay for it), but I'm guessing if Bury (or an unnamed hawker) was planning to target her, the flower was "thrown in" with a compliment and a wink.

He knew the victims, they knew (and therefore trusted) him.

The main thing I have a problem with it being Bury is that he murdered his wife without an exit plan.

With the purchase of the rope, it appears to have been premeditated.

However, if Rose Mylett was a Ripper victim -- in December before the Burys fled to Dundee, it would appear that the Ripper was evolving his MO, because Mylett was strangled with a cord.

However, in Ellen Bury's death, I'm wondering if Bury went into a rage (there was no money in the house and he had just a tiny amount of cash on him according the the reports) before he had his exit plan worked out.

I'm also wondering if he was in the habit of drinking so much that he had blackouts (which might account for him thinking he was the Ripper). He and his wife had been drinking before they went to bed, so perhaps he killed in a drunken blackout.

I know, perhaps it would be too difficult for someone that drunk to wield the knife the way the Ripper did.

But Bury said he woke up and his wife was dead . . .

Or, perhaps, Bury just believed himself to be the JtR because he'd awaken from a blackout period and another woman would be dead.

It seems, though, that in Dundee, he was homesick and wanted to get back to his friends in London -- that's from some of the information from his trial. If Ellen still had money left, perhaps she didn't want to go back because she didn't want him back with the same crowd he'd been running with???

Or perhaps they were out of money and he had no one to turn to and no way to get back home and in a drunken rage killed her, then had no where to go and so lived for a week with her stuffed into the large wooden box before turning himself in with the story that she had committed suicide.

OR perhaps, it was simply Jacob Levy, who lived right in the center of everything.

When being committed, he requested that he be restrained because he was afraid he would do "bodily harm to SOMEONE else" and there appears to be no record of him having harmed anyone.


Thanks for the opportunity to express "creative" possibilities.

Curious (about everything)

[Sam Flynn]

PPS.. PLEASE someone, find the relavant newspaper clips..the more the merrier..so that we can see exactly WHAT was reported? Thank you-Phil

I did that on page 1 of this thread, Phil, here.

[Sam Flynn]

I KNOW it doesn't state Mr.Postie and the gang went IN to Miller's Court. But I maintain that the possibility of that unholy trio of jobs points, striongly, with background of MJK's past

What about the unholy "umpteen-o" of jobs who "inspected the scene of the crime" who weren't spotted - or reported - by the journos, Phil? After all, the papers say "among those who visited...", which implies that people of other professions also visited the scene. Perhaps teachers and bakers and candlestick-makers weren't as newsworthy as politicians and civil servants.

The papers also state that not all the visitors were confined to the lower classes. Mutatis mutandis, it follows that most of those who (according to the Morning Advertiser) "loitered" at the scene were from the lower classes. What were they doing there?